Jesus Suffered In Hell For Our Sins? Is That Biblical?

[OldRegular]

the ones in "Abrahm's Bosom" was also "Resurrected" and taken to heaven when Jesus ascended.

Mt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

There is absolutely no indication in Scripture that these Saints [Notice that not all saints were included.] possessed a resurrection body like that of Jesus Christ and that they ascended to heaven. It is my belief that these bodies returned to the grave to await the general resurrection. We see from the following Scripture that Jesus Christ was the first resurrection and that there will be no further resurrection until He returns.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23, KJV
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

 

[Me4Him]

There is absolutely no indication in Scripture that these Saints [Notice that not all saints were included.] possessed a resurrection body like that of Jesus Christ and that they ascended to heaven. It is my belief that these bodies returned to the grave to await the general resurrection. We see from the following Scripture that Jesus Christ was the first resurrection and that there will be no further resurrection until He returns.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23, KJV
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

You find that Jesus returns with "ALL HIS SAINTS".

1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

I find where the church is Rapture, both dead/living, and the saints killed/under the altar are all in heaven,

But I don't find any place where the OT saints are taken to heaven, other than when he ascended,

Don't the OT saints return with Jesus, if so, how/when did they get there????

 

[Marcia]

There is a difference between Soul and spirit. We are made of three parts body, soul, and spirit.
MB

This is not settled at all. Many, like myself, believe there is the material part of us (body) and immaterial (soul/spirit and mind or intelligence). In the OT, soul and spirit are often used interchangeably. Sometimes "soul" refers to feelings or just to a life.

 

[Marcia]

The Jews had a belief that the Soul hung around on earth "Three days" before leaving for the "grave", and it was possible for the soul to reenter the body and the person "Revive".

I can't recall off hand the verse they used to justify this belief, If I do, I'll post it,

But, this is one reason many Jews don't believe Jesus actually died, but was "Revived".

And it's one reason Jesus waited until the "Fourth day" before "resurrecting" lazarus, To the Jews, it confirmed he was "dead".


Ps 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

Ps 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?

Jew believed the soul went to the grave until resurrected, we know this as "Abraham's bosom".

What the Jews believed is really irrelevant. What matters is what God says.

We know that our souls don't go to a grave - only people who believe in soul sleep believe that.

Paul revealed that after Jesus, Souls, "absent from the body" was "present with the lord", (Heaven), and the ones in "Abrahm's Bosom" was also "Resurrected" and taken to heaven when Jesus ascended.

Mt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive,

(souls released from the captivity of the Grave/Abraham's bosom, both OT and future souls

This passage is very obscure and no one is sure what it is saying. One can never pin a doctrine on one obscure or difficult verse. So it's not enough imo to support the view that Abraham's Bosom is somewhere in the ground.

http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/luke16.html#22

Luke 16:22,23) refers to the custom of reclining on couches at table, which was prevalent among the Jews, an arrangement which brought the head of one person almost into the bosom of the one who sat or reclined above him
To "be in Abraham's bosom" thus meant to enjoy happiness and rest (Matt. 8:11; Luke 16:23) at the banquet in Paradise. (See BANQUET; MEALS.)

http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/luke16.html#22http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/luke16.html#22http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/luke16.html#22Source
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/abrahamsbosom.html

The expression Abraham's Bosom occurs in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:22-23). It gives reference to the place where Lazarus was carried after his death.
"The phrase "to be in one's bosom" applies to the person who so reclines at the table that his head is brought almost into the bosom of the one sitting next above him. To be in Abraham's bosom signified to occupy the seat next to Abraham. Jesus, accommodating His speech to the Jews, describes the condition of Lazarus after death by this figure (Luke 16:22-23)." [1] Abraham's Bosom is not spoken of as in Hades but rather as something separate from it (Luke 16:23). Thus, it should be understood as a place of happiness and rest. In parallel, Matthew 8:11 gives reference to those who will "sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven." Some have also considered this to be the equivalent of the Paradise of Luke 23:43.

Source
http://www.theopedia.com/Abraham's_Bosom

 

[OldRegular]

Good posts Marcia!

 

[Me4Him]

What the Jews believed is really irrelevant. What matters is what God says.

Keep believing that and you'll never learn much about the OT or the NT, the OT is the "Schoolmaster", and few Christians understand it from a Jewish view.

We know that our souls don't go to a grave - only people who believe in soul sleep believe that.

Since Jesus, no saved soul goes to the grave, they're in Heaven.

Re 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, (of witnesses) and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Re 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (rapture)

This passage is very obscure and no one is sure what it is saying. One can never pin a doctrine on one obscure or difficult verse. So it's not enough imo to support the view that Abraham's Bosom is somewhere in the ground.

Is Hell in the center of the earth, Heaven beyond the last star, the point is no one went to heaven until "AFTER" Jesus became the "FIRSTBORN" of all who would follow him.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;

 

[Marcia]

Keep believing that and you'll never learn much about the OT or the NT, the OT is the "Schoolmaster", and few Christians understand it from a Jewish view.

I do know some things about the Jewish view but I don't think I have to know all Jewish thinking and beliefs, only those relevant to scripture that are essential to understand the text. And I've had 2 OT courses in seminary from an excellent professor who also teaches Hebrew and Greek and Hermeneutics.

Is Hell in the center of the earth, Heaven beyond the last star, the point is no one went to heaven until "AFTER" Jesus became the "FIRSTBORN" of all who would follow him.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead

He is the first one to bodily resurrect, that is what this means.

 

[OldRegular]

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;

That Scripture has reference to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, not the destination of the souls of deceased Saints.

I stated at the beginning that this topic smelled of Word of Faith heresy [post #18]. It still does and I am through with it.

 

[Me4Him]

I do know some things about the Jewish view but I don't think I have to know all Jewish thinking and beliefs, only those relevant to scripture that are essential to understand the text. And I've had 2 OT courses in seminary from an excellent professor who also teaches Hebrew and Greek and Hermeneutics.

I had a debate with a Jew that ran close, maybe over, 2000 post.

He didn't understand, or accept, any of the connections I made between the two, (OT/NT) but I sure did with his comments/belief.

take my word for it, you really won't understand the NT until you start understanding the OT from the Jewish perspective.

He is the first one to bodily resurrect, that is what this means.

Jesus is the first "BORN AGAIN" person.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

 

[Marcia]

Jesus is the first "BORN AGAIN" person.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

What!!!

Jesus did not have to be born again. Jesus is the first one to bodily resurrect, that's what this means.

Are you a Word Faith follower?

 

[Me4Him]

What!!!

Jesus did not have to be born again. Jesus is the first one to bodily resurrect, that's what this means.

Are you a Word Faith follower?

I trying to figure out what faith you are, from your comments??? :laugh:

Jesus was the "FIRST" to be resurrected unto "ETERNAL LIFE".

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

"NOBODY", was Resurrected prior to Jesus, souls didn't go to heaven prior to Jesus, Enoch/Elijah are exceptions, which you'll find throughout scripture.

I started to use the term "FIRSTBORN" instead of "firstfruit", but thought you might not understand it.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;

 

[Marcia]

I trying to figure out what faith you are, from your comments??? :laugh:

Jesus was the "FIRST" to be resurrected unto "ETERNAL LIFE".

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

"NOBODY", was Resurrected prior to Jesus, souls didn't go to heaven prior to Jesus, Enoch/Elijah are exceptions, which you'll find throughout scripture.

I started to use the term "FIRSTBORN" instead of "firstfruit", but thought you might not understand it.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;

Jesus was the first to be bodily resurrected, but He always had eternal life because He's God the Son, 2nd person of the Trinity. He never stopped being God.

When you said Jesus was the "first born again person," that means that Jesus had to be regnerated. Being born again or born from above in John 3 means that one is spiritually dead and needs to be born again of the Spirit. Jesus did not need to do this, or are you saying He did? Just trying to clarify.

 

[Allan]

I believe there is a contradiction between your responses as highlighted above. Context, brother, Context!

Incidentally verses 3-6 do not refer to unbelief but apparently to old age.

No, there is no contradiction whatsoever.

Even damned will one day go to/before God who created them. It is called the judgment. Matthew Henry even agrees with me on this (as well as other Reformed Theologians)

It removes to the world of spirits, to which it is allied. It goes to God as a Judge, to give account of itself, and to be lodged either with the spirits in prison (1 Pt. 3:19) or with the spirits in paradise (Lu. 23:43), according to what was done in the body.

I already stated that it was refering to old age or did you not read the majority of what I wrote? I was showing that 3-6 is specifically about those who 'did not remember' their creator as they became old with age (which means no longer believing as they seemed to in their youth. Thus fell away). They were miserable and fearful and burdened (vs 5). This burdened is not that they 'are' a burden but due to their ailments of old age it is a burden to those who trusted in their youthful vigor and not rested in their Lord God/Creator. There is no peace seen in this passage of these people. Only misery, clamity, and fear. The scripture states that when they die and go to God - vanity of vanities. There is no joy here only vanity or emptiness.


I also notice you did not answer my question about "does God allow sin in Heaven", nor it seems did you comment on the Hebrews passage that states the blood of goats and bulls do not take away sins only covers them. But to those who's sins are removed they may enter boldly into the Holiest.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Marcia,

Let your heart be at peace. The soul of Jesus Christ went into the presence of God the Father when he died just as the souls of all believers. Scripture is very clear on this regardless of what anyone else says. They do not speak infallibly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Scripture does.

Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Response Posted by Allan

Do you also believe that God allows sin into heaven to dwell?

Further Response Posted by Allan
One last thing on the above verse. It is a little thing called context. Bothersome I know..

However, the context here is important to understand in order to properly grasp what is being conveyed. In Chaper 11 it is stating what a youths are to shun, then (beginning at verse 12:1) he is stating what they are to follow after/remember the Creator.. They are to do so with the best of their days and to continue even into the hardships of old age.

However what we have listed in verses 3-6 is not those of faith but actaully is concerning those who have NOT remembered or were not of faith and the picture is a bleak and dismal one.

The end picture of 'this' person, a person who remembered not God is that they will die and their spirit will return to God. This isn't a beautiful picture but one of judgment. It isn't about a things that happen in a time frame but that which will happen in time. This is about a non-believer because they are no longer remembering the Creator/God they claimed to know in their youth.

Originally Posted by OldRegular
I believe there is a contradiction between your responses as highlighted above. Context, brother, Context!

Incidentally verses 3-6 do not refer to unbelief but apparently to old age.

Further Response Posted by Allan
No, there is no contradiction whatsoever.

Even damned will one day go to/before God who created them. It is called the judgment. Matthew Henry even agrees with me on this (as well as other Reformed Theologians)

I already stated that it was refering to old age or did you not read the majority of what I wrote? I was showing that 3-6 is specifically about those who 'did not remember' their creator as they became old with age (which means no longer believing as they seemed to in their youth. Thus fell away). They were miserable and fearful and burdened (vs 5). This burdened is not that they 'are' a burden but due to their ailments of old age it is a burden to those who trusted in their youthful vigor and not rested in their Lord God/Creator. There is no peace seen in this passage of these people. Only misery, clamity, and fear. The scripture states that when they die and go to God - vanity of vanities. There is no joy here only vanity or emptiness.

I had not intended to post here again but the discrepancy between your latest posts could not be ignored.

In your initial response you stated: However what we have listed in verses 3-6 is not those of faith but actaully is concerning those who have NOT remembered or were not of faith and the picture is a bleak and dismal one.

Above you state: I was showing that 3-6 is specifically about those who 'did not remember' their creator as they became old with age (which means no longer believing as they seemed to in their youth. Thus fell away).

There is a big difference between those who “ were not of faith” and ”those who 'did not remember'”.

It also appears from the above that you believe one can lose their salvation: ”Thus fell away” .

 

[Allan]

I had not intended to post here again but the discrepancy between your latest posts could not be ignored.

In your initial response you stated: However what we have listed in verses 3-6 is not those of faith but actaully is concerning those who have NOT remembered or were not of faith and the picture is a bleak and dismal one.

Above you state: I was showing that 3-6 is specifically about those who 'did not remember' their creator as they became old with age (which means no longer believing as they seemed to in their youth. Thus fell away).

There is a big difference between those who “ were not of faith” and ”those who 'did not remember'”.

It also appears from the above that you believe one can lose their salvation: ”Thus fell away” .

How about actually dealing with what I say rather than making up something I didn't say.

Do you believe that a person who is saved will ever fall away and no longer believe?
Niether do I and I believe scripture does not either. Thus what it is stating that they were not of the faith because they did not continue in faith.

 

[Me4Him]

When you said Jesus was the "first born again person," that means that Jesus had to be regnerated. Being born again or born from above in John 3 means that one is spiritually dead and needs to be born again of the Spirit. Jesus did not need to do this, or are you saying He did? Just trying to clarify.

"Born again" was a bad choice of the word, what I meant was that until the "wages of sin" was paid, the "law" fulfilled, no body was resurrected to enter heaven.

Lazarus died but where did his soul go, Heaven, I don't think so, Jesus is the "Firstfruit/Firstborn" to be resurrected from death/grave to enter heaven.

Jesus prepared "The Way" (early church name) for us to "Follow".

 

[OldRegular]

How about actually dealing with what I say rather than making up something I didn't say.

Do you believe that a person who is saved will ever fall away and no longer believe?
Niether do I and I believe scripture does not either. Thus what it is stating that they were not of the faith because they did not continue in faith.

The information I posted was copied directly from your posts. In my post #134 I show the discrepancy between your two statements. Surely you are honest enough to admit the discrepancy.

 

[Marcia]

"Born again" was a bad choice of the word, what I meant was that until the "wages of sin" was paid, the "law" fulfilled, no body was resurrected to enter heaven.

Lazarus died but where did his soul go, Heaven, I don't think so, Jesus is the "Firstfruit/Firstborn" to be resurrected from death/grave to enter heaven.

Jesus prepared "The Way" (early church name) for us to "Follow".

Thanks for explaining about "born again."

I think we disagree on the "Firstfruit" term, since I believe it means Jesus was the first to have a bodily resurrection.

 

[Me4Him]

Thanks for explaining about "born again."

I think we disagree on the "Firstfruit" term, since I believe it means Jesus was the first to have a bodily resurrection.

Unto "Eternal life", I agree, but several were "Resurrected" (back on earth, alive) prior to Jesus being resurrected, but they all died again, Jesus didn't.

 

[Me4Him]

"double Post"