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Jesus Suffered In Hell For Our Sins? Is That Biblical?
- Thread starter BibleTalk
- Start date
Again, no discrepancy is there but I guess you are of those who think one can loose their salavtion.OldRegular said:
My point in passages is not that they were saved but that they followed religiously or obedienctly those things in their youth (as my children do since they are all under 6). Chapter 11 is about what they are not to do (or shun), Ch 12:1 states they are to remember the Creator of their youth (much like Rom 1 speaking of God being revealed as God the Creator threw His Creation) who they, these Jews, grew up understanding and whom their fathers have served. And that while they are still in their prime of life do everything they can to serve Him. However this is a continuation of the instruction of Chapter 11 of those things they are keep from and not do. Chapter 12:1-2 is a brief encouragment or exhortation, but 3-6 goes back to the instruction of the person who continues a life 'not remembering' and in their old age as it's ailment continue they are all the things you will not find in a believer and it is very reason the writter states that their death is vanity or empty as they go to God. This is not what you hear of any believer who goes to God. Yet scripture does state that all spirits will stand before Him and thus even those of the Reformed faith acknowledge this verse means or refers to "THAT" event and not that a believer dies and goes straight to God. That is a theological presupposition and is denied by context.
Surely you are honest enough to admit you rendering of the passage is out of context and strictly a proof-text out of context.
I agree.Marcia said:
Much of what Me4Him is saying comes from what is known as Hyper-Dispensationalism (nothing meant negitively Me4Him) and is distinct in many areas from historic, popular, and progressive Dispensationalism. So this is why much of what he is saying is somewhat different to that which many other Dispensationalists might understand. It has the same basic outline but their are many distinctions and variables that take it beyond what most dispensationalists will agree with.
Whatever was reserved for us, Christ took upon Himself.BibleTalk said:
If you believe we were destined for hell because of our sins, and many on this board do not believe that, then there is no way to say that Christ suffered for us.
If you DO believe we were destined for hell because of our sins, then there is no way to say that Christ did not take that upon Himself. But, praise God, the "pains of death" could not hold Him! Acts 2:24
Calvary----there Man did his worst
Calvary----there God did His best
On the cross of the Lord Jesus---in a finite period of time---God took all of the punishment for sin that we would have had to endure in an infinite period of time
The Lord Jesus decending to hell and suffering more-----cannot be found in Holy Scripture and is nothing but defiled heresy
Calvary----there God did His best
On the cross of the Lord Jesus---in a finite period of time---God took all of the punishment for sin that we would have had to endure in an infinite period of time
The Lord Jesus decending to hell and suffering more-----cannot be found in Holy Scripture and is nothing but defiled heresy
Tom Butler
New Member
If I understand the gospel, it is that Jesus suffered on the cross, died, was buried, and rose from the dead.
When Isaiah wrote in chapter 53:8 "He shall see the travail of his soul and be satisfied," he was referring to his suffering and death on the cross. God's justice was satisfied with that, and no further suffering was required.
When Isaiah wrote in chapter 53:8 "He shall see the travail of his soul and be satisfied," he was referring to his suffering and death on the cross. God's justice was satisfied with that, and no further suffering was required.
Tom Butler said:
If people would read the parable and pay attention to the "DETAILS" they would "SEE" a "great gulf" between Abraham's bosom and hell,
A "Gulf" that can't be crossed either to put water on his tongue or for him to cross and go back to warn his brothers,
However, from Abraham's side of the Gulf, it was "possible" to be "Resurrected", back on earth, and warn his brothers, the reason he asked for lazarus to be "sent".
Lu 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (Two witnesses/Trib)
Marcia
Active Member
Me4Him said:
Just because the rich man asked for it does not mean it was possible. He asked it because he was told he couldn't warn his brothers. When he asked for Lazarus to be sent, he was given the answer of "no." We can't make a theology out of what the rich man asked.
This account/parable does not tell us that the beggar was not in heaven - we've already been through this and I don't think you made a case for it.
Marcia said:
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; (law) (prisoners in Prison)
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
A "Judge" doesn't "FREE" prisoners until the "FINE" (wages) is "PAID".
Mt 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
17 From that time Jesus began to preach,
Aaron said:
The souls of everyone is held prisoner in a "Body of sin" that will never stop sinning until it's dead.
Paul asked the question:
Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me (soul) from the body of this death? (flesh)
"Spiritually" we crucify the body of sin to be saved, this "spiritually" separates the soul from the flesh as far as God is concerned, however sin continues to exist in the body.
This is where "GRACE" enter the picture, through our Faith righteousness is imputed to us "IN SPITE" of the continuing sin that exist, that's "GRACE".
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee:
Actually the soul is "SEALED" against sin, under the law, one chargable sin and Jesus would have to die again.
Without the Once Saved/Always Saved doctrine no one could ever be assured of "eternal life".
Marcia
Active Member
Me4Him said:
I am not sure why you quote this. This passage was addressed to an earthly king. "Lucifer" is Latin for "shining one" and was used for Venus. It's telling the king he's put himself too high. Many people see it is a sort of metaphor for Satan, and I can see that. But it is not addressed to Satan (nor is the Ezek 28 passage, although that one has more in common with Satan imo).
Yes, people were in captivity to sin. They were in spiritual darkness. They were imprisoned by sin.