Jesus sweating blood

[John of Japan]

Yes it is. Hebrews 5:7 and Matthew 26:39 jibes perfectly with the Messianic Psalms.

The cup was death and His prayer was answered.

And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt. Mt 26:39

who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1 Pet 2:23

Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, Heb 5:7

The statement, 'nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt', was Christ 'committing himself to him the judgeth righteously'.

His request, 'if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me', was a supplication to 'him that was able to save him from death'.

The fact that God raised Him from the dead shows both that His supplication was heard, and that God declared Christ to be righteous, after the Jews had unrighteously judged Him to be worthy of death

The following passages from the Psalms are Messianic and are directly related to what is recorded in Mt 26:39 & Heb 5:7:

He asked life of thee, thou gavest it him, Even length of days for ever and ever. Ps 21:4

For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption. Ps 16:10

8 I cried to thee, O Jehovah; And unto Jehovah I made supplication:
9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
10 Hear, O Jehovah, and have mercy upon me: Jehovah, be thou my helper. Ps 30

4 The cords of death compassed me, And the floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
5 The cords of Sheol were round about me; The snares of death came upon me.
6 In my distress I called upon Jehovah, And cried unto my God: He heard my voice out of his temple, And my cry before him came into his ears. Ps 18

4 Pluck me out of the net that they have laid privily for me; For thou art my stronghold.
5 Into thy hand I commend my spirit: Thou hast redeemed me, O Jehovah, thou God of truth.
13 For I have heard the defaming of many, Terror on every side: While they took counsel together against me, They devised to take away my life.
14 But I trusted in thee, O Jehovah: I said, Thou art my God.
15 My times are in thy hand: Deliver me from the hand of mine enemies, and from them that persecute me.
16 Make thy face to shine upon thy servant: Save me in thy lovingkindness.
17 Let me not be put to shame, O Jehovah; for I have called upon thee: Let the wicked be put to shame, let them be silent in Sheol.
22 As for me, I said in my haste, I am cut off from before thine eyes: Nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications When I cried unto thee. Ps 31

( and there are too many other lengthy ones to include here)

So then according to you, Jesus was hoping that the death on the cross (as opposed to what I have been saying, death in the Garden) would not happen, and that would make Him a false prophet. Is that correct? (See my post #19.)

 

[37818]

We differ, and that's okay.

Where I am strong in my belief is that there in the Garden, Jesus was praying not to die yet, whether from hematidrosis or from a physical attack of some other kind by Satan or someone else. Otherwise, if He were praying not to die on the cross, He would be praying that He Himself would become a false prophet.

Here is Christ's prophecy in Matt. 20:18-19--"Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again."

So Christ could not have been praying in the Garden that He may not die on the cross.

Well maybe. But Hebrews 5:7-8 argues, ". . . Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; . . ." Matthew 26:38-39, ". . . My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: . . . prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: . . ."

 

[kyredneck]

So then according to you, Jesus was hoping that the death on the cross (as opposed to what I have been saying, death in the Garden) would not happen, and that would make Him a false prophet. Is that correct? (See my post #19.)

No. That's not at all what I'm saying. He asked not to be left in the grave and God heard Him. He raised Him from the dead.

Something about that hard for you to understand?

 

[John of Japan]

Well maybe. But Hebrews 5:7-8 argues, ". . . Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; . . ." Matthew 26:38-39, ". . . My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: . . . prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: . . ."

Sorry, I'm missing your point here.

 

[John of Japan]

No. That's not at all what I'm saying. He asked not to be left in the grave and God heard Him. He raised Him from the dead.

Something about that hard for you to understand?

I understand you perfectly. But my point remains. If Jesus prayed in the Garden prayer to avoid the death on the cross, then He was asking to become a false prophet. He "set His face to go to Jerusalem" (Luke 9:51). He was ready and willing to go to the cross, and did not try nor wish to avoid it.

One cannot hold intelligently to the view that Jesus was praying to avoid the cross without dealing with this issue.

 

[kyredneck]

I understand you perfectly.

No, you misunderstand me perfectly.

If Jesus prayed in the Garden prayer to avoid the death on the cross,

Again, not all what I'm saying. Did you not read post #16?:

"Compare v 39:

39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

With v 53:

53 Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?

...and know that Christ COULD HAVE circumvented the cross simply by asking, but that's not what He was requesting in v 39."

 

[John of Japan]

No, you misunderstand me perfectly.

Again, not all what I'm saying. Did you not read post #16?:

"Compare v 39:

39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

With v 53:

53 Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?

...and know that Christ COULD HAVE circumvented the cross simply by asking, but that's not what He was requesting in v 39."

Okay, I reread post #16, and fully admit that I have no clue what you are trying to say. We are obviously talking about different subjects, but I'm not sure what yours is regarding the Garden prayer.

Do you or do you not believe that in the Garden Jesus was praying to avoid the cross? Because I can't tell from taking a second look at what you've written. It should be a fairly simple exegesis, but what you are trying to say seems to me to be needlessly complicated. Verses you've referenced seem to me to be unconnected.

 

[kyredneck]

Do you or do you not believe that in the Garden Jesus was praying to avoid the cross?

Not.

Because I can't tell from taking a second look at what you've written. It should be a fairly simple exegesis, but what you are trying to say seems to me to be needlessly complicated. Verses you've referenced seem to me to be unconnected.

He asked not to be left in the grave and God heard Him. God raised Him from the dead.

Something about that hard for you to understand?

 

[John of Japan]

Not.

He asked not to be left in the grave and God heard Him. God raised Him from the dead.

Okay, thank you. I've never heard of this position before, but I think you have a point.

Something about that hard for you to understand?

Not when you state it clearly like this.

 

[kyredneck]

Not when you state it clearly like this.

I copied and pasted post #23.

 

[John of Japan]

I copied and pasted post #23.

Sorry I missed it.

 

[kyredneck]

Sorry I missed it.

Did you also miss the references to the Messianic Psalms, post #20?

 

[37818]

Sorry, I'm missing your point here.

Ok. In Hebrews 5:8, ". . . yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; . . ." Him being the Son to be our High priest, what was obedience He was to learn by His suffering? Per Hebrews 5:7-8.

 

[John of Japan]

Did you also miss the references to the Messianic Psalms, post #20?

Frankly, I disagree with your interpretation, so I don't believe those references apply to the Garden of Gethsemane.

 

[John of Japan]

Ok. In Hebrews 5:8, ". . . yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; . . ." Him being the Son to be our High priest, what was obedience He was to learn by His suffering? Per Hebrews 5:7-8.

Again, I don't know where you are going with this. What do you believe the obedience He learned was?

 

[37818]

Again, I don't know where you are going with this. What do you believe the obedience He learned was?

In His praying He asked to some how get out of what He came to do. Noting in Him asking that He did so being the Son in really being a man that He was. Nothing else makes sense. He always had it in His power to to get out of it without asking.

 

[37818]

In His praying He asked to some how get out of what He came to do. Noting in Him asking that He did so being the Son in really being a man that He was. Nothing else makes sense. He always had it in His power to to get out of it without asking.

Titus 1:2 and Isaiah 53:6 as having already been done and being the yet future event means that what Christ did going to the cross could not have not happened.

 

[John of Japan]

In His praying He asked to some how get out of what He came to do. Noting in Him asking that He did so being the Son in really being a man that He was. Nothing else makes sense. He always had it in His power to to get out of it without asking.

Thank you for the clarification.

I see that as reading into the text. "Learned obedience" could also fit exactly with my interpretation: Christ submitted Himself to the Father's will, whether it be to die in the Garden and be resurrected there to face the cross. Either way, He knew He had to go to the cross, since He Himself had prophesied that, and He could not become a false prophet. So, He could not possibly have prayed to avoid the cross.

 

[kyredneck]

Frankly, I disagree with your interpretation, so I don't believe those references apply to the Garden of Gethsemane.

So you're content with the assumption that Satan tried to kill Jesus with a bad case of hematidrosis. Got it.

 

[37818]

The hematidrosis view solves some exegetical problems. There are recorded cases of people having died from the condition. Jesus almost died in the Garden of Gethsemane. Hebrews 5:7 is obviously referring to the Garden prayer: "Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared."

So, Jesus felt himself close to death in the Garden of Gethsemane, with Satan trying to kill Him through his physical condition (Matthew 26:48). So He prayed for deliverance from death in the Garden, and was heard. God sent an angel to physically strengthen Him (Luke 22:38). He then was able to go to the cross and die for the sins of the world, fulfilling His own prophecies about that.

This is the minority position, I know. Most think He was praying for the cup of the cross to pass from Him. I've heard that preached countless times. However, that would make Jesus praying to become a false prophet, since He had prophesied His own death on the cross. And there are those who take this position, that Jesus was praying not to die in the Garden: church father Dionysius, F. B. Meyer, John R. Rice, et al.

Matthew 26:38, ". . . My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: . . ." So you see this as the cup Jesus asked the Father to remove from Him. But then why would it be the Father's will that He simply die in that garden? Matthew 26:39, ". . . prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. . . ." I am not quit understanding something here.