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Jesus Wept
- Thread starter salzer mtn
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salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
It is perfectly true that God is both honored and dishonored by men; not in his essential being, but in his official character. It is equally true that God has been glorified by creation, by providence, and by redemption. But all of this has to do with his manifestative glory and the recognition of it by us. Yet had God so pleased He might have continued alone for all eternity, without making known His glory unto creatures. Whether He would do so or not was determined solely by His own will. He was perfectly blessed in Himself before the first creature was called into being. And what are all the creatures of His hands unto Him even now? Let scripture make the answer: Behold, the nations are but a drop in the bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: Behold, He taketh up the isles as a very small thing. And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beast thereof sufficient for a burnt offering. All nations before Him are nothing; and they are counted unto Him as less than nothing, and vanity. To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto Him? Isa 40:15-18. That is the God of scripture, alas, He is still " the unknown God" Acts 17:23 to the heedless multitude. It is He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: that bringeth the princes to nothing; He maketh the judges of the earth as vanity Isa 40:22-23. How vastly different is the God of scripture from the god of the average pulpit today. Arthur Pink.
His children ? all mankind His children ?
You have been studying Pink.....VERY GOOD :thumbsup:
I approve of that message:smilewinkgrin: :godisgood:
he never did! paul calls him the man Jesus, hebrews calls Him our high priest who i still as we, human, and that the bible states same jesus will return as when he left!
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Did He create orphans? I think not. Those who do not believe have separated themselves. He didn't throw them away.
God had already condemned all to be under the judgement of Adam, as being found in him, we are already found in Adam as sinnrs and lost and condemned!
I’m not sure I understand what this thread is saying (that happens a lot to me :tear
.It’s one thing to say that Jesus, knowing that Lazarus would die and that He would bring him back to life, truly empathized with those who were grieving – shared in their grief as a divine expression of Himself. It’s another to say that Jesus was taken aback, surprised and overcome with grief over the loss of His friend – or that He is in heaven just hoping for the best.
Sovereignty does not exclude emotional expression. Emotional expression does not equate to disappointment or surprise – neither is necessary to express joy or sorrow.
Are you saying that God, being unable to genuinely engage or be affected by man, is not capable of love or anger and that those instances in Scripture are merely anthropomorphic?
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
The answer to your question is in post twenty two. What amazes me is some people won't accept Job 22:1-4 and Job 35:3-8 when these scripture are speaking of Gods essential being.I’m not sure I understand what this thread is saying (that happens a lot to me :tear
It’s one thing to say that Jesus, knowing that Lazarus would die and that He would bring him back to life, truly empathized with those who were grieving – shared in their grief as a divine expression of Himself. It’s another to say that Jesus was taken aback, surprised and overcome with grief over the loss of His friend – or that He is in heaven just hoping for the best.
Sovereignty does not exclude emotional expression. Emotional expression does not equate to disappointment or surprise – neither is necessary to express joy or sorrow.
Are you saying that God, being unable to genuinely engage or be affected by man, is not capable of love or anger and that those instances in Scripture are merely anthropomorphic?
I agree. Too often the transcendence of God is ignored. We know God because he has made himself known to us. He reveals himself to us, but we cannot know him beyond what he has revealed.
I think the issue goes both ways, though. Augustine constructed a divine immutability that was inseparably linked to God’s eternity and atemporal existence. He (and also Aquinas) seems to have eradicated relational variability from God’s character. We see this idea today as some hold that God can’t demonstrate genuine wrath, love, joy, etc towards mankind because this would mean man caused a change in God. God cannot show sorrow because of man’s actions because this would be man injuring God. I think that this understanding is a misrepresentation of ontological and ethical immutability (emotional changes are not changes in being or character). To the contrary, ontological immutability by necessity demands relational change.
We werre made in the expressed image of God, so we "miror" His emotions, but from a flawed, sinful perspective...
God has his emotions in perfect harmony and in prefect control...
I also think that our emotions are evidence of God’s character dimly reflected. But this is a debatable issue – you are assuming that man being created in the expressed image of God denotes mirroring divine emotion (again, I agree). While I wouldn’t take the position, one could just as easily argue that human emotion has nothing to do with Imago Dei but is rather a product of our self centered and sinful nature (the ever changing man) .
Salzer mtn has a good point. I’ve seen many preachers (particularly on television) who seem to indicate that if you do this or that then God will do your bidding (although it would never be worded like that). This also seems apparent in most congregations I've attended, although to a milder degree.
I do think that it is a good topic to explore – and if God were like man (controlled by his emotion), then it would appear that man had some control over or could elicit a change in God. Divine emotion as divine expression of God’s being (not an ontological change itself), however, eliminates this concern.
Salzer mtn has a good point. I’ve seen many preachers (particularly on television) who seem to indicate that if you do this or that then God will do your bidding (although it would never be worded like that). This also seems apparent in most congregations I've attended, although to a milder degree.
I do think that it is a good topic to explore – and if God were like man (controlled by his emotion), then it would appear that man had some control over or could elicit a change in God. Divine emotion as divine expression of God’s being (not an ontological change itself), however, eliminates this concern.
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God seems to have emotions as we have, as we were created to reflect that aspect of Him, but again, He is perfect in His anger/jealousy etc!
And where I have personally observed people trying to manipulate God in charasmatic church circles, has many hold to ven God being bound by those :laws of faith", that if one believes and confesses, God must do it!
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
That's the negative side of the coin. By the same token, those in Christ have assurance of eternity with Christ, but more importantly, they have assurance they are called to a purpose. Heaven isn't our goal. Service to God is.
We are not told why Jesus wept except perhaps a hint in a couple of verses preceding it.
John 11
32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
I believe it has to do with what you pointed out concerning the word used of His "weeping".
John 11:35 is the only place in the NT where it is used. Literally it means "to make tears" (silently). The others were "wailing".
What you say is what we are taught in Theology 101 (reformed) and OK - it sounds good like it is what would glorify God.
But what of the scripture: e.g.
Genesis 6
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
A reformed brother told me that this was an "anthropomorphism".
But that is the explanation of neo-orthodoxy. Don't want to go there.
But that is the explanation of neo-orthodoxy. Don't want to go there.
Either He was grieved or He was not.
We are told in the NT not to cause God grief:
Ephesians 4:
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
IMO , in His sovereignty, foreknowledge and the council of His own will, He chose to undergo the grief caused by man because in the end of days He would receive the greatest ultimate glory, love and adoration from His children.
Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
HankD
God has emotions as we do, its just that whenever he expresses/feel them, always in the perfect sense!
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
When man sees scripture that say's, The Lord wept or he is grieved or he is troubled or he repented and so on, they automatically think God is as one of themselves. If God is Alpha and Omega the beginning and the end and knows all things, both in past tense, present tense and future tense why would any thing man does upset him. If I, as a man could know the future as God does, wouldn't I foresee difficulties in the future by a bad decision on my part in the present and not make that decision. Therefore I conclude when the Lord uses these terms, wept, grieved ect. in revealing his behavior it is not the same behavior as man when he is grieved, troubled and so on. Today people think God is just like man in every way. That is the reason man sin's with a high hand and a fist clenched toward God. They think he is as fickle as they are. The Lord said concerning man Psa 50:21 Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself. He said my ways are not your ways, your thoughts are not my thoughts, as the heaven is high above the earth, so is my ways above your ways.
People often worship a god of their own making.
Doyuo think God really has emotions like anger/gets jealous etc, or are all of those terms just trying to relate God to our levels in a way that we can understand and relate to him?
Of necessity it must be that way to a degree since we are made in His image and likeness. Later when we are born again then we become His very children begotten of Him and born of the Spirit and also having the mind of Christ.
Many times in the scriptures God is shown as having joy, or grieving, or angry and filled with wrath and subsequently acting upon these by destroying peoples (Flood, Sodom and Ghomorrah) or forgiving (Ninevah).
Hebrews 3:8
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.).
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.).
I don't believe any of the scriptures you offered can negate the possibilty of Him having these qualities or showing weakness.
This is one way in which we are like Him having these same qualities.
In fact He wants us to please him - without faith it is impossible to please Him.
HankD