The Bible as you know states that Jesus came forward to be baptized. And when John refused to baptize Him Jesus said to him" suffer it to be so now; for thus it beometh us to fulfill all righteousness". The keyword in this statement is all. Jesus did not get baptized to fulfill his own righteousness, otherwise he would be unrighteous before his baptism and we know that was not true. No, Jesus was baptize to fulfill all righteousness. The all righteousness here means he got baptisted for everyone that accepts him. Knowing that all our righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord. Would not our baptism for ourselfs be a part of that righteousness? It is for this reason that we get baptized into Jesus. Or "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost". Both of course are scriptural. Because being baptized in the name of Jesus we are positioned to benefit from Jesus' baptism which was for all believers.
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Jesus's baptism:
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bapmom
I do not understand your attack on me really? What I said was, the saints in heaven are praying FOR us and your loved ones are looking forward to seeing you when you cross over. Do you think all the saints in heaven are UN concerned about the church on earth today and are only concerned with their present state? Not so.
I do not understand your attack on me really? What I said was, the saints in heaven are praying FOR us and your loved ones are looking forward to seeing you when you cross over. Do you think all the saints in heaven are UN concerned about the church on earth today and are only concerned with their present state? Not so.
bapmom
Not quite. God chose John the Baptist specifically. To be a fore runner of Christ in announcing his arrival and to call the children of Israel to repentance. He baptized then because of their repentance. That was the purpose John baptized the children of Israel for. There was no one else doing the same ministry as John, while he was alive. He had a special calling.
Not quite. God chose John the Baptist specifically. To be a fore runner of Christ in announcing his arrival and to call the children of Israel to repentance. He baptized then because of their repentance. That was the purpose John baptized the children of Israel for. There was no one else doing the same ministry as John, while he was alive. He had a special calling.
Ron,
its not meant as an attack.....you are using the exact same points in all your posts as the Catholics from "Catholic Answers Board" use when they send people out to other boards to "answer misconceptions about catholicism." It makes me wonder if you are getting the same fax of talking points as those others do.
I don't know if we can call it "prayer" when the saints living in heaven talk to God. However, I do not believe that we can ever claim that it is proper to address a prayer on earth to a person in Heaven besides GOD. I don't know if those Christians know whats going on down here on earth. There isn't enough evidence from the Bible to determine that dogmatically. Whether they know what is going on here or not is irrelevant though. We are not to pray to them, or try to contact them in any way for any reason.
What do we call it when those in Japan do the same thing? We call it "ancestor worship"....though its the same thing we are talking about in catholicism. Those that we consider practicing ancestor worship are merely praying to their loved ones who have gone on before in order for them to intercede on their behalf with their "great spirit." But because they don't call it "catholicism", we decide that it IS wrong and its a heathen practice. OTOH, when a person declares themselves catholic, and says that they are asking their patron saint for help to do whatever, we say "Oh, ok....that's different."
How, pray tell, is that different?
edited to say.....sorry about the hijacking, and Ron, if you want to continue this lets do so in PMs or another thread started for this issue.
its not meant as an attack.....you are using the exact same points in all your posts as the Catholics from "Catholic Answers Board" use when they send people out to other boards to "answer misconceptions about catholicism." It makes me wonder if you are getting the same fax of talking points as those others do.
I don't know if we can call it "prayer" when the saints living in heaven talk to God. However, I do not believe that we can ever claim that it is proper to address a prayer on earth to a person in Heaven besides GOD. I don't know if those Christians know whats going on down here on earth. There isn't enough evidence from the Bible to determine that dogmatically. Whether they know what is going on here or not is irrelevant though. We are not to pray to them, or try to contact them in any way for any reason.
What do we call it when those in Japan do the same thing? We call it "ancestor worship"....though its the same thing we are talking about in catholicism. Those that we consider practicing ancestor worship are merely praying to their loved ones who have gone on before in order for them to intercede on their behalf with their "great spirit." But because they don't call it "catholicism", we decide that it IS wrong and its a heathen practice. OTOH, when a person declares themselves catholic, and says that they are asking their patron saint for help to do whatever, we say "Oh, ok....that's different."
How, pray tell, is that different?
edited to say.....sorry about the hijacking, and Ron, if you want to continue this lets do so in PMs or another thread started for this issue.
Ron,
I wasn't denying that John the Baptist was specially chosen.
I was merely pointing out that the idea of a baptism was a common thing in the culture of that day. One could be baptized into any one of several various movements that were prevalent during that day.
Only John the Baptist was baptizing unto the repentance into Jesus Christ.....
I wasn't denying that John the Baptist was specially chosen.
I was merely pointing out that the idea of a baptism was a common thing in the culture of that day. One could be baptized into any one of several various movements that were prevalent during that day.
Only John the Baptist was baptizing unto the repentance into Jesus Christ.....
Tom Butler
Of course you know and I know there is no scripture that speaks of any of the saints praying for us in heaven.Unless we believe the 24 elders portray the saints in the book of Revelation.And the "souls" under the altar in Rev 6. Why? Because hardly anything is mentioned at all in scripture about what the saints are doing in heaven. But silence proves nothing.
One could say, well the saints in heaven don't smile, laugh, speak,run,walk do anything in heaven because the scripture doesn't directly say so. But the bible doesn't tells us everything about everything Tom.
Tom, did the pious saints who are now in heaven. once pray for the church while on earth? Did Paul command us to pray for one another as well, while we go about our daily lives? Why do you suppose the saints would suddenly stop praying for us even more, while in heaven?
Tom, the church is a BODY, both here on earth and those in heaven.This is called "the communion of saints". We are all one in Christ and we are all a holy priesthood. So just because our bodies die, does not mean our being dies. We merely pass on to another realm of consciousness. And a GLORIOUS one at that.
Of course you know and I know there is no scripture that speaks of any of the saints praying for us in heaven.Unless we believe the 24 elders portray the saints in the book of Revelation.And the "souls" under the altar in Rev 6. Why? Because hardly anything is mentioned at all in scripture about what the saints are doing in heaven. But silence proves nothing.
One could say, well the saints in heaven don't smile, laugh, speak,run,walk do anything in heaven because the scripture doesn't directly say so. But the bible doesn't tells us everything about everything Tom.
Tom, did the pious saints who are now in heaven. once pray for the church while on earth? Did Paul command us to pray for one another as well, while we go about our daily lives? Why do you suppose the saints would suddenly stop praying for us even more, while in heaven?
Tom, the church is a BODY, both here on earth and those in heaven.This is called "the communion of saints". We are all one in Christ and we are all a holy priesthood. So just because our bodies die, does not mean our being dies. We merely pass on to another realm of consciousness. And a GLORIOUS one at that.
bapmom
If you will turn in your bible to Rev 6:9-10 we see a description of souls in heaven who are aware of their fellow brethren being persecuted here on earth. They petition God to remedy the situation.So both the idea that the saints are aware of what transpires here on earth and that they do petition God for our needs is made clear in this portion of scripture.
If you will turn in your bible to Rev 6:9-10 we see a description of souls in heaven who are aware of their fellow brethren being persecuted here on earth. They petition God to remedy the situation.So both the idea that the saints are aware of what transpires here on earth and that they do petition God for our needs is made clear in this portion of scripture.
bapmom
No named church was persecuted by the Catholic church in the first 500 years of the church's history for denying infant baptism at all. This simply is not true. For infant baptism was first spoken of already and being practiced in the 2nd century. The controversy was not that an infant shouldn't be baptized, but to WHEN. Some like Tertullian felt, the parents should wait until the infant was at least eight days old, rather then right after birth.
The big issue in the church was not over infant baptism at all, but of the nature and position of the Logos to God the Father. There was the Arian and Sabellian controversies over Christ's nature, person and origin. This was debated for some 300+ years. It was the Catholic church council in 380 A.D. who finally settled the Trinity dogma once and for all.
No named church was persecuted by the Catholic church in the first 500 years of the church's history for denying infant baptism at all. This simply is not true. For infant baptism was first spoken of already and being practiced in the 2nd century. The controversy was not that an infant shouldn't be baptized, but to WHEN. Some like Tertullian felt, the parents should wait until the infant was at least eight days old, rather then right after birth.
The big issue in the church was not over infant baptism at all, but of the nature and position of the Logos to God the Father. There was the Arian and Sabellian controversies over Christ's nature, person and origin. This was debated for some 300+ years. It was the Catholic church council in 380 A.D. who finally settled the Trinity dogma once and for all.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
No that wasn't that. John baptized Jesus Christ, that means he immersed Him in the river Jordan!
Ron , I want to speak of another matter . Do you believe Scripture can contradict itself ? There are not two opposite sides to truth . When it says in Isaiah 53 that " All we like sheep have gone astray and He has laid on Him the iniquity of us all ." Does that go against Jesus' statement to some that " Ye believe not , because ye are not my sheep . " ( I prefer the TNIV , but can't get away from the KJV in my memory banks ) . You need to acknowledge that the Word of God does not turn against itself . Do Word studies , compare Scripture with Scripture . Then we will get somewhere .
Rippon
The SAME bible that says Christ laid down his life for his sheep and died for his people also says Christ is the Savior of the WORLD.John 4:42,I Tim 4:10. When studying scripture on a particular subject, one must consider ALL the scriptures concerning the sacrifice of Christ and not just the one's that favor a particular view. Calvinists ONLY cite the scriptures that state Christ died for his sheep, his people and so it APPEARS that is the final word on the matter.
But in truth, the bible teaches Christ is the Savior offered for the whole world, but he becomes the Savior who applies his saving merits, only to those who will come to believe.Acts 10:43, Acts 16:31, I Tim 4:10.
You see, the death of Christ saves N
NE apart from faith in him. Christ was offered for all men, but without faith in his sacrifice no man can receive the forgiveness of sins. Man MUST believe IN THE GOSPEL to be actually saved. For the gospel is the POWER unto salvation for the sinner, if he will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.Romans 1:16
The SAME bible that says Christ laid down his life for his sheep and died for his people also says Christ is the Savior of the WORLD.John 4:42,I Tim 4:10. When studying scripture on a particular subject, one must consider ALL the scriptures concerning the sacrifice of Christ and not just the one's that favor a particular view. Calvinists ONLY cite the scriptures that state Christ died for his sheep, his people and so it APPEARS that is the final word on the matter.
But in truth, the bible teaches Christ is the Savior offered for the whole world, but he becomes the Savior who applies his saving merits, only to those who will come to believe.Acts 10:43, Acts 16:31, I Tim 4:10.
You see, the death of Christ saves N
NE apart from faith in him. Christ was offered for all men, but without faith in his sacrifice no man can receive the forgiveness of sins. Man MUST believe IN THE GOSPEL to be actually saved. For the gospel is the POWER unto salvation for the sinner, if he will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.Romans 1:16
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
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