Jesus's Wine Fermented or NOT?

[annsni]

Scripture says Jesus was a "Nazerene". Some view that as a reference to being from Nazereth, but the where in the O.T. does it say the Messiah was to come from Nazereth?

One prof I had believed the reference to being a "Nazerene" was a reference to the "nazerite" vows (like Samson and others).

If Jesus had taken nazerite vows, those vows included not to consume alcohol of any kind.

Just something else to consider.

peace to youraying:

Well, since He was termed numerous times "Jesus of Nazereth", I think that kind of blows that away. I don't see any evidence anywhere that He was a Nazerite. There is no Biblical proof of that.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

As a sidenote, I know an old Baptist church that in it's history, they used to use moonshine for communion....

NO WAY!!

That is too weird, even here in NC we keep the moonshine in the trunk till after services.

 

[Palatka51]

Personally, as much as I don’t want my kids drinking I can’t teach them this because I don’t believe its true and when they figure out I lied to them about this they will wonder what else I lied to them about.

First of all I don't think that you meant to categorize my stand on nonalcoholic wine as lies. So I give you a pass here.

Now if you want to make the wine vs strong drink argument that is a different matter. The “strong drink” of the old testament is different from wine and was apparently made from grains, mainly barley. It could have been a distilled spirit or it could have been closer to modern beer. The strong drink in Luke 1:15 is another separate drink and was made from distilled fruit, vegetables, and honey. Strong drink in the Bible never refers to fermented wine but always to other alcoholic beverages. Some have argued that in biblical times the distillation process was not refined enough to make true distilled spirits but having seen and worked on some home made stills myself I can tell you it isn’t that hard.

It would be amiss of us to limit the technology of their day. My goodness these are the people that had knowledge of aqueducts and some rudimentary use of steam. It stands to reason that they knew how to make pottery air tight and leak proof.

 

[Zenas]

They didn't use clay jars, they used wineskins that expanded due to fermintation.. that is why Jesus used the analogy of not putting new wine into old wine skins.. because the wine skins would bust open.

Yes, the wine was alcoholic.
Maybe not as much as today, but it was, it was the custom, and tradition at that time.

Here is a question I don't ever think we have ever seen on wine threads before:

Was this question ever brought up before the late 1800s and the women's temperance movement in America?

I think the women did such a good job around 1900 convincing people that all alcohol is bad, that it actually became a teaching of the church then.

Can anyone show from history (before 1800) the question of Jesus drinking alcoholic Wine?...

This may give us some fresh pastuerized insight...

As a sidenote, I know an old Baptist church that in it's history, they used to use moonshine for communion....

I'll throw in my two cents worth here and then leave this dead horse for others to beat up on. One of the pioneers of whiskey distilling in Kentucky was a Baptist minister named Elijah Craig. He lived at what is now Georgetown, just north of Lexington, and died in 1808. He is widely credited with developing Kentucky Bourbon whiskey, although this product actually came along somewhat later. Tim, I think you are right about the temperance movement. The idea that use of alcohol is somehow a tainted activity did not exist before the temperance ladies made their impact on our culture.

 

[annsni]

Unless of course you believe like I do that the “Last Supper” was not the Passover meal with the unleavened bread and the lamb but the feast of preparation that kicked off the Passover week. This would have been the meal where they ate all the leavened bread left in the house and also they would have drunk all the leavened or fermented wine.

This of course matches a Wednesday crucifixion, the Passover Sabbath commencing at Sundown Wednesday, 3 days and nights in the tomb, and a resurrection sometime after dark on Saturday night.

One reason I like this timeline for the last supper and crucifixion is that it means Jesus was dying on the cross at the exact same moment that Passover lambs were being slain throughout Judea. I guess that is an argument for another thread in a few months.

Did I mention the last supper? I don't think so. Jesus would have celebrated the Passover EVERY year - so atleast 32 times in His life. What that last Passover/Last Supper thing was has no bearing on this conversation.

 

[webdog]

I know that Fermentation takes place but I always was taught that Jesus only drank it BEFORE this took place.

An impossibility without pasteurization (which was created in the 1800...not in biblical times as was alluded here in this thread). Fermentation takes place immediately after the yeast and sugar come in contact with each other, which means as soon as it's pressed. Even boiling the wine after fermentation would still ferment due to ariborne yeast. The result would be something disgustingly horrific...and Isaiah 25:6 describes what the "best" wine is (that the Lord of Hosts will serve us), well aged wine (the same as today). Jesus turned water into this best wine. That was part of what made His miracle such a miracle...that He could take water and turn it into the best, aged wine...not the "new" wine that was consumed after only a couple weeks of fermentation. We are talking years in the aging process, btw.

 

[canadyjd]

Well, since He was termed numerous times "Jesus of Nazereth", I think that kind of blows that away. I don't see any evidence anywhere that He was a Nazerite. There is no Biblical proof of that.

Matt. 2:23 says Joseph and Mary and Jesus "and came and lived in a city called Nazareth. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets; 'He shall be called a Nazarene." (bold for emphasis, not yelling)

Matthew states the "prophets" proclaimed Jesus would be called a "Nazarene" and/or come from Nazareth.

The only problem is that I can't find any place in the O.T. where the Messiah is to come from Nazareth or is to be called a "Nazarene". Either Matthew made a mistake (I don't think so) or something else is meant by the passage.

However, I realize I could be wrong. If you find those passages that predict the Messiah was to be called a "Nazarene" and/or was to come from Nazareth, let me know where they are so I can rethink my position.

The fact is that Matthew doesn't mention a specific prophet here, as he does elsewhere, which may indicate a general prophecy concerning the kind of person the Messiah is to be...i.e a "Nazarite". The "nazarites" are found in Numbers 6, and generally speak of one who will be completely devoted to God during a specific period of time (the time of the vow).

There are parallels between the birth of Jesus and the birth of Samson, a nazarite, (Judges 13), even to the point of the angel proclaiming that his (the angel) is named "wonderful".

I am, however, not trying to be dogmatic about this theory. It seems helpful, IMHO, to explain what Matthew was saying in 2:23.

peace to youraying:

 

[tinytim]

NO WAY!!

That is too weird, even here in NC we keep the moonshine in the trunk till after services.

The way it was passed on to me was one of the members owned a still, and would bring 'the recipe" on communion Sunday... of course this was before the temperance movement.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

First of all I don't think that you meant to categorize my stand on nonalcoholic wine as lies. So I give you a pass here.

No slander was intended Palatka, I was already typing my post when you posted yours. I was only referring to myself. I cannot teach my children something I don't believe to be true just because its for their own good, something that was done to me as a child many times.

I don't agree with your view but it is compatible with scripture and I don't believe you are lying about anything.

 

[EdSutton]

Guess what? 'Nother 'booze' thread:

Check this out;

http://www.treknature.com/gallery/Africa/South_Africa/photo185398.htm

And:

Maybe I shouldn't be so hard on this posters on this thread, which, BTW, I haven't even bothered to read, after about two posts, figuring all the 'usual suspects' would soon show up with all the usual comments posted.

I mean, after all, I have lately missed seeing what was the usual thread every 3 or 4 months over my three years on the BB.

Ed

 

[Jkdbuck76]

Please use the search function. I'm sure there are oodles of pages dedicated to this subject.

 

[rbell]

Maybe I shouldn't be so hard on this posters on this thread, which, BTW, I haven't even bothered to read, after about two posts, figuring all the 'usual suspects' would soon show up with all the usual comments posted.

I mean, after all, I have lately missed seeing what was the usual thread every 3 or 4 months over my three years on the BB.

Ed

But, I must say...since a member or two has been given a vacation, these threads are not as numerous, and certainly not as contentious.

 

[EdSutton]

But, I must say...since a member or two has been given a vacation, these threads are not as numerous, and certainly not as contentious.

This definitely is true. :thumbs:

Ed

 

[preachinjesus]

how is these threads grow like weeds and good threads on topics that truly matter to Baptist theology and doctrine wither and die from a lack of substantive posts? One more thing I'll never understand.

 

[webdog]

how is these threads grow like weeds and good threads on topics that truly matter to Baptist theology and doctrine wither and die from a lack of substantive posts? One more thing I'll never understand.

Amen. I'll drink to that!

 

[Jerome]

Leviticus 10:9
"Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:"

 

[annsni]

But, I must say...since a member or two has been given a vacation, these threads are not as numerous, and certainly not as contentious.

I was just thinking the same thing....




as I have my nice bowl of Irish Beef Stew (made with BOTH Guiness and wine!)

 

[webdog]

Leviticus 10:9
"Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:"

In context, of course...

 

[webdog]

I was just thinking the same thing....




as I have my nice bowl of Irish Beef Stew (made with BOTH Guiness and wine!)

"Guiness...its' whats for dinner"

You don't even need the stew, it's so filling

 

[annsni]

"Guiness...its' whats for dinner"

You don't even need the stew, it's so filling

LOL


DH and I don't drink anymore but I gotta say, having a part of a can leftover of the Guiness..... it was tempting! But it went down the drain. I know, I know. Sinful but I had to do it. It won't keep until I make this again (and I SO will make it again) and none of us will consume it so what should I have done? Oh wait! I heard it's good for horses! Maybe I'll let Whirl try it out!