Jew is a religous term only

[Amy.G]

Maybe this will help.

Strongs:

G1672
Ἕλλην
Hellēn
hel'-lane
From G1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek speaking person, especially a non-Jew: - Gentile, Greek.


Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (G1672)

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (G1672)

 

[Martin Luther]

Maybe this will help.

Strongs:

G1672
Ἕλλην
Hellēn
hel'-lane
From G1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek speaking person, especially a non-Jew: - Gentile, Greek.


Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (G1672)

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (G1672)

Good post.

 

[webdog]

Paul uses Israelite and jew interchangeably in Romans, particularly Romans 9-11 where he is dealing with Israel. Romans 11:1 further refutes that this term is religious in origen only, as he still referred to himself as an Israelite, while he did not hold to the ceremonial and socail laws of the Israelites. The social laws given to the jews had nothing to do with spirituality, btw.

 

[Allan]

Deleted , no point.

 

[webdog]

Deleted , no point.

There's always a point :laugh:

 

[Gup20]

ML,
First let me say that I agree with you 100% that salvation is by faith, and NNE can be saved by works except for one - Jesus Christ.

Jesus WAS saved by following The Law. He lived a perfect, sinless, and blameless life. We are made righteous (followers of the law) by our faith in Jesus Christ just as Abraham was made righteous by his faith.

But don't "throw the baby out with the bathwater"... don't dismiss The Law simply because that isn't how you are getting there. The Law is not null or void - it will be fulfilled.

When your human, mortal body dies, the law is fulfilled in you. But you live on because your spirit is made alive (made righteous) in Jesus Christ.

Remember Jesus said:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Paul said:

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Gup20]

HP: I have always believed that God chose to bestow an inheritance of land and blessing upon Abraham and his descendants. Were not the children of Abraham, even those not of spiritual Israel, the rightful heirs of the promise chosen by God to receive it?

Actually, no.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[webdog]

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Actually, no.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Since Christ was a Jew, in the line of Abraham, believers are "in" Him...making us also from His seed, not by birth but by relationship. That verse fails to call believers "Jews" or "israel", however...just like the gentile prosylytes in the OT were never referred to as such.

 

[Gup20]

Paul uses Israelite and jew interchangeably in Romans, particularly Romans 9-11 where he is dealing with Israel. Romans 11:1 further refutes that this term is religious in origen only, as he still referred to himself as an Israelite, while he did not hold to the ceremonial and socail laws of the Israelites. The social laws given to the jews had nothing to do with spirituality, btw.

Actually in Acts 18:18 and again in Acts 21:24-26 we see that Paul followed and obeyed the Jewish traditions. We also know that Paul was a pharisee who learned under Gamaeliel prior to his conversion on the road to damascus. But we also see in Acts that Paul did not require Gentiles to follow Jewish traditions:

Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Additionally, Paul uses The Law to prove that salvation is by faith in Galatians:

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

According to Paul, Genesis 15-17 - which talks about Abraham's covenant - says that those who are heirs according to the promise (by Faith) are the true heirs, whereas those who are heirs by the flesh and The Law are actually spiritual Ishmael. So the Israelites and Jews are spiritual Ishmael and Christians are spiritual Israel.

Consider God's promise to Abrham: I will make you the father of MANY NATIONS. Consider God's blessing on Ishmael:

Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.

Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

We know from Galatians 3:16 the "seed" referred to in Genesis 17:19 is Jesus Christ. But notice the blessing of Ishmael (the heir according to the flesh and The Law) was that he would make a great nation (single nation) with Twelve princes (the twelve tribes of Israel). Whereas in Isaac's seed (singular -- referring to Christ) the covenant is by promise.

EDITED IN:

Also remember this:

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Martin Luther]

ML,
First let me say that I agree with you 100% that salvation is by faith, and NNE can be saved by works except for one - Jesus Christ.

Jesus WAS saved by following The Law. He lived a perfect, sinless, and blameless life. We are made righteous (followers of the law) by our faith in Jesus Christ just as Abraham was made righteous by his faith.

But don't "throw the baby out with the bathwater"... don't dismiss The Law simply because that isn't how you are getting there. The Law is not null or void - it will be fulfilled.

When your human, mortal body dies, the law is fulfilled in you. But you live on because your spirit is made alive (made righteous) in Jesus Christ.

Remember Jesus said:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Paul said:

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I agree, mostly. But Christ did not need salvation. He was not born with sin or sin nature. He did however fulfill the law as you said. Paul says we are to establish the law, so certainly we are to follow most of it. There are certain parts that are no longer necessary like tithing, and animal sacrifice.

Now about Mat 5:18, Christ was correct that the law was in full force until it was fulfilled, and fortunately for us, Christ fulfilled the law. Romans 8:4 is a perfect fit with Rev 2:9 and Rom 2:29 they both refer to those who write the law of God on their heart and not as an outward show. Man will always struggle with this concept; you must change your heart.

 

[ShotGunWillie]

I have to be honest here, I didn't read all of the posts, but I did read every single post that Webdog replied to and to be honest, I think he and I both are in agreeance on this subject. Now isn't that refreshing.

I guess for the most part I am missing the point of the OP. If it is to say that there are no such thing as an "Israelite" today, direct from the line of David, you would be mistaken. If you are saying that the Jew is no longer of great importance to God, you would be mistaken. If you are saying there are no Jews left on Earth that are directly linked, pure in lineage, from the 12 Tribes, you are mistaken.

Is it me or is your hero an anti-semite and perhaps this is where your getting your poor information from.

 

[Martin Luther]

If it is to say that there are no such thing as an "Israelite" today, direct from the line of David, you would be mistaken.

There are still Israelites, but NNE knows who they are. God does save 144,000 of them, He saves them through Christ and they are added to the church.

If you are saying that the Jew is no longer of great importance to God, you would be mistaken.

The jews are not Israelites they are a religious group. People who call themselves jews accept a religion and the doctrine of the jews which now includes the rejection of the Christ. Their holy book is the Talmud and their holy number is six. Only those who seek righteousness are important to God.

If you are saying there are no Israelites left on Earth that are directly linked, pure in lineage, from the 12 Tribes, you are mistaken.

I fixed it so it makes sense now. Israelite=physical son of Abraham, jew=anyone following the O.T. for salvation which at the time of Christ probably included a few Israelites.

 

[Gup20]

I agree, mostly. But Christ did not need salvation.

I dunno... what about this:

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

He was not born with sin or sin nature. He did however fulfill the law as you said. Paul says we are to establish the law, so certainly we are to follow most of it. There are certain parts that are no longer necessary like tithing, and animal sacrifice.

I would agree. I think the only "law" we are to follow is the "law of love".

Now about Mat 5:18, Christ was correct that the law was in full force until it was fulfilled, and fortunately for us, Christ fulfilled the law. Romans 8:4 is a perfect fit with Rev 2:9 and Rom 2:29 they both refer to those who write the law of God on their heart and not as an outward show. Man will always struggle with this concept; you must change your heart.

Read Romans 6-8, my friend. The Law is still in full force. In fact, it is by The Law that we have the righteousness of Faith. The concept of Righteousness by Faith comes from The Law - Genesis 15.

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

But recall what Galatians 3:16 said -- that "seed" refers to Jesus Christ. Paul makes it pretty clear that God preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham, and it was this belief (in Jesus Christ) that was counted as righteousness.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Romans 4 also confirms this.

According to Romans 8:4, when we die The Law is fulfilled. Christ fulfilled The Law by not sinning. We fulfill the law by paying the penalty for our sin (which is death). According to Romans 8:3, our sin is "condemned" in our flesh, while our spirit is made alive in Christ.

One thing I love about Paul is he had a billiant legal mind. He continually uses the Old Testament (The Law) to prove the covenant of faith in Jesus Christ. In Romans 7 Paul starts the chapter by demonstrating that - according to The Law, a woman who has a husband is free from the law binding her to her husband when the husband dies. He goes on to argue that - in the same way, we are free from The Law of sin and death because sin is condemned to our bodies, and we become free from The Law (the law is fulfilled) when our bodies die. However, we remain alive because our spirits are alive in Christ. So like the widow is free from The Law when her husband dies, so we too are free from The Law of sin and death.

Finally, I would remind you:

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Do not dismiss the Jew or The Law. These being the natural branches and the root of Christianity. They are necessary for what Christ did to mean anything. The Law proves that salvation is by faith alone. Romans 9-11 talks about The Law having to conclude all under sin, thus proving that only the righteousness of faith can save anyone.

 

[ShotGunWillie]

There are still Israelites, but NNE knows who they are. God does save 144,000 of them, He saves them through Christ and they are added to the church.





The jews are not Israelites they are a religious group. People who call themselves jews accept a religion and the doctrine of the jews which now includes the rejection of the Christ. Their holy book is the Talmud and their holy number is six. Only those who seek righteousness are important to God.





I fixed it so it makes sense now. Israelite=physical son of Abraham, jew=anyone following the O.T. for salvation which at the time of Christ probably included a few Israelites.

Can one become a Jew religiously, yes, can one become a Jew in lineage, no. What then becomes of the Messianic Jew? A Jew and an Israelite are one in the same. You can bring religion into to it if you would like, but they are not the same. An Israelite is a Jew, which is a Hebrew, which is the chosen people of God Almighty. There are 144,000 that have been preserved there are also scores of Jews who, in order to rebuild the Temple and begin sacrifice again and worship, are needed, therefore all 12 tribes have been perserved and there is more than 144,000 of them.

Martin Luther, lost all creditability when he turned his back to the Jew.

 

[Martin Luther]

I dunno... what about this:

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

I don't see how this shows that Christ needed to be saved. He was perfect and was not under condemnation.

I would agree. I think the only "law" we are to follow is the "law of love".

agreeed

Read Romans 6-8, my friend. The Law is still in full force. In fact, it is by The Law that we have the righteousness of Faith. The concept of Righteousness by Faith comes from The Law - Genesis 15.

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Now you just said above that love fulfills the law. Abraham had to be obedient as best he could to the law, as part of the BETTER covenant, we are obedient through faith not the law because Christ fulfilled it. Paul says we are not to throw out the law but to establish it.

Finally, I would remind you:

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Do not dismiss the Jew or The Law. These being the natural branches and the root of Christianity. They are necessary for what Christ did to mean anything. The Law proves that salvation is by faith alone. Romans 9-11 talks about The Law having to conclude all under sin, thus proving that only the righteousness of faith can save anyone.

Jews are not Israelites. Israelites were the natural branches, God will save at least 144,000 pure Israelites into the church.

 

[ShotGunWillie]

Jews are not Israelites. Israelites were the natural branches, God will save at least 144,000 pure Israelites into the church.

is that because you said so? When did Jews quit being Jews and starting being Jews?

 

[Martin Luther]

Can one become a Jew religiously, yes, can one become a Jew in lineage, no. What then becomes of the Messianic Jew? A Jew and an Israelite are one in the same. You can bring religion into to it if you would like, but they are not the same. An Israelite is a Jew, which is a Hebrew, which is the chosen people of God Almighty. There are 144,000 that have been preserved there are also scores of Jews who, in order to rebuild the Temple and begin sacrifice again and worship, are needed, therefore all 12 tribes have been perserved and there is more than 144,000 of them.

Martin Luther, lost all creditability when he turned his back to the Jew.

Find me proof (bible or historical) that the word jew means Israelite, it does not. In the bible, a jew is ALWAYS in reference to the people who follow the law. This was never exclusive to Israelites as you can read in Esther 8:17. Many people converted to the law even before the captivity. As you may already know, the northern ten tribes never returned to Israel and were not there when Christ walked the earth. Martin Luther had jews pegged, Christ rejecters are no sons of God, Gods people are those who follow Christ. It is incredibly ignorant for Christians to support jews the way they do. They are supporting the religion of Christ rejection. The mark of the beast will likely be the Star of David, otherwise known as the star of Remphan.



Isaiah 56:6
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;


Esther 8:17

17And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

 

[ShotGunWillie]

Find me proof (bible or historical) that the word jew means Israelite, it does not. In the bible, a jew is ALWAYS in reference to the people who follow the law. This was never exclusive to Israelites as you can read in Esther 8:17. Many people converted to the law even before the captivity. As you may already know, the northern ten tribes never returned to Israel and were not there when Christ walked the earth. Martin Luther had jews pegged, Christ rejecters are no sons of God, Gods people are those who follow Christ. It is incredibly ignorant for Christians to support jews the way they do. They are supporting the religion of Christ rejection. The mark of the beast will likely be the Star of David, otherwise known as the star of Remphan.



Isaiah 56:6
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;


Esther 8:17

17And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

This is where we disagree and we will never agree. You view a Jew for their religious ties, even though there are Christians who are Jews because of their Nationality. Christ was a Jew and was our Saviour, you do know this right? God's Chosen People are the Jew, the Jew that is born a Jew, not Sammy Davis Jr. or Madonna.

I think you have a problem seeing the role the Jews play still yet, this day. You would rather spend more time stating how the Star of Daivd will be the mark of the beast (most ignorant thing I have ever heard) than to actually think about what you are saying.

When did the Israelite become the Hebrew and when did the Hebrew no longer exist? Who was given the law, who entered into the promised land, and who rebuilt Jerusalem. Who did the King of Babylon capture and put into bondage, who is a cup of trembling to all of the nations?

I don't get your bent on the Jew, but I would be careful in your pursuit of replacement theology.....

 

[ShotGunWillie]

oops......

 

[Martin Luther]

This is where we disagree and we will never agree. You view a Jew for their religious ties, even though there are Christians who are Jews because of their Nationality. Christ was a Jew and was our Saviour, you do know this right? God's Chosen People are the Jew, the Jew that is born a Jew, not Sammy Davis Jr. or Madonna.

I think you have a problem seeing the role the Jews play still yet, this day. You would rather spend more time stating how the Star of Daivd will be the mark of the beast (most ignorant thing I have ever heard) than to actually think about what you are saying.

When did the Israelite become the Hebrew and when did the Hebrew no longer exist? Who was given the law, who entered into the promised land, and who rebuilt Jerusalem. Who did the King of Babylon capture and put into bondage, who is a cup of trembling to all of the nations?

I don't get your bent on the Jew, but I would be careful in your pursuit of replacement theology.....

If I were a "jew" how would I know I am related to Abraham? By what proof would I know? No man can know who the Israelites are. The jews pretend they are but certainly cannot prove it. You have yet to give any proof of this assumption. Christ was an Israelite who followed the pure law. If you would have read the original post I already addressed this topic. Christians don't replace anything, Christians are the ONLY people that will be saved. FYI Abraham was a Christian.