Jewelry, make up, and Christian women?

No. She wears a split skirt, called a "riding skirt" by equestrians and made popular back in the 1950s by Victoria Barkley on "Big Valley."

The majority of the issues you raise are preferences, but there are honest and sincere Christians who do believe the normative dress for Christian ladies is a dress or skirt, based on their understanding of 1 Timothy 2:9.

 

"Most Christian ladies, and even most ladies on the streets. Dresses and skirts are fairly common on ladies where I live."

You said the Bible says hanging robes....you have taken what the Bible said and changed it to dresses and skirts. Hanging robes would be more in line with an Burka....so there is room for some re-definition, even by your specific denominational teachings.

LaRae

 

No my Greek is quite current I work in greek just about every day. καταστολη = attire, clothing BDAG p527
The problem with your analysis is that you ignore nearly three pages worth of definitions for the word kata. kata can mean anything from down from, to, toward, against, up to, upon, along, over.
I also checked with people more knowledgable in greek than I am and they agreed with me.

 

In regards to Dt 22:5, who determines what is men's clothing and what is women's clothing? Society does, now here is the kicker. Not all pants are designed to be worn by men and women. Take the capri's those are most definitely designed for women. Which when taken with Dt 22:5 means that they are acceptable attire for women and not for men. If they used dt 22:5 to ban cut hair, makeup, and jewelry then they made the passage say something it obviously didn't.

 

I go to a church that believes in gender roles. The women in my church have no authority over men at all-in church or in the home. However, women wear pants to church all the time. we definately cut our hair and wear make up. The scriptures that refer to gender roles simply say that women cannot have authority over men. Please check out www.wels.net. there is a wealth of information there on this subject.

 

Just a few corrections. When translating from one language to another, and especially when translating from a synthetic language such as Greek to an analytical language such as English, there is always room for some interpretation. However, it is not "re-definition." It is simply using common English words to describe what is meant by common Greek words. To try to bring the horrors of the Taliban and their burkas into the discussion is disingenuous at best.

Secondly, I have no denomination, and even if I had one, it would not change what the bible says. It still says the same thing, try as you like to change it, it still stays the same thing.

 

Hi Dr. Cassidy,

In your post, you wrote:

I might have been a bit too ambiguous in my usage of the word "modesty". I would not equate it with right or wrong Christian conduct. I would equate it more closely with one's adherence to the style and norms of the place or time he or she is in.

Look back to C.S. Lewis' example of the Pacific islander that I quoted. It is a good example of the definition for "modesty" that I had in mind.

Surely we agree that Jesus, being a first century Palestinian Jew dressed in a certain manner. I seriously doubt that he wore a three-piece suit to the synagogue on Saturdays. He most likely either wore sandals or went barefooted. In today's world, such dress would be considered by most as "immodest" and "inappropriate" for worship. One's views of modesty (as I stated in my earlier post) are indeed influenced by time and place.

I do agree that, when it comes to matters of morality (and the cardinal and theological virtues), your words ring true: "...the bible warns us not to be conformed to the culture and society of this world, but to be changed by putting on the mind of Christ..."

Sorry for the confusion.

Also, Dr. Cassidy, I would be interested in your comments on the second half of my previous post (about women covering their heads, etc.). Thanks.

God Bless.

IOA,
Deacon's Son

 

Then they are ignorant of Greek. I suggest you read what Tertullian had to say on the subject of καταστολη, unless, of course, you think your Greek skills are superior to his?

 

It has already been hashed to death on this board. 1 Corinthians 11:15 "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering."

 

"Just a few corrections. When translating from one language to another, and especially when translating from a synthetic language such as Greek to an analytical language such as English, there is always room for some interpretation. However, it is not "re-definition." It is simply using common English words to describe what is meant by common Greek words. To try to bring the horrors of the Taliban and their burkas into the discussion is disingenuous at best.

Secondly, I have no denomination, and even if I had one, it would not change what the bible says. It still says the same thing, try as you like to change it, it still stays the same thing. "

I understand about translations from languages. I wasn't talking about the taliban...it isn't just the taliban that wears a burka. Sounds like you are trying change the subject here.

You said the Bible says loose robes.....dresses and skirts are not loose robes....the closest thing to them would be something like a burka....so I don't see how you can say I am the one changing the wording....my point is that your particular beliefs are not the same as the Bible says....if you were following the Bible literally then your wife would be wearing loose robes...not skirts and dresses.

LaRae

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Is that the best you can do? I am laughing at you. Admittingly my skills in Greek are still growing, hence my consulting others with more experience and knowledge. But I know enough Greek to call your explanation foolish and wantonly lacking in scholarship. I would not call people like Dr James Voelz ignorant when it comes to koine Greek. I would of been willing to give your translation creedance but you ignored so much translational evidence it isn't funny.

Is Tertullian God? Last time I checked he isn't so that means he is falliable. Your statement seems to say he is infalliable. I know the ECF's are smart but they make mistakes too.

Edited out cheapshot, my apologizes to RCC's for so blatently misrepresenting their doctrine.

[ March 18, 2002, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: Godmetal ]

 

Godmetal,

you said:

Is Tertullian God? Last time I checked he isn't so that means he is falliable. Your statement seems to say he is infalliable I didn't realize you were RCC
------------------------------------------

When did Tertullian become a Pope? Even if he was a Pope he would only be infalliable regarding faith and morals...not about greek translations.

If you are trying to disprove what someone else says fine...but don't do it by taking cheap shots at the RCC along the way.

LaRae

 

Folks, is there a possibility you could make this easy on yourselves?

What is the standard? Whatever keeps a brother (or sister) from stumbling.

Paul gives us a principle in Romans 14/15 and 1 Corinthians (chapters 8, 9, and 10): Watch out for your brother. You ARE your brother's keeper.

Yes, you have liberty in Christ; but if you're a strong Christian, you'll do well to realize that your liberty in Christ doesn't affect just you.

[ March 18, 2002, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

Amen. Thanks for reminding us.

 

Thank you, all, for completely ignoring my post.
It never ceases to amaze me how we use scripture to justify to others what God has revealed to us. As if we are supposed to be the Holy Spirit for someone else.

Don,
Thank you.

Mr. Cassidy,
In regards to head covering...I'm fairly new to the board and wasn't around for the rehashing.
Please excuse me if repeat what's been said. But I have some questions and I don't mean any disrespect. If a women's hair is her covering than should men shave their heads as they are not to be covered? In Cor.11:6 it says if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off....which implies a covering other than hair.

suzanne

 

LaRae, not only is GodMetal ignorant of Greek grammar, etymology, and philology, he is also ignorant of ecclesiastical history. Tertuallian converted from the established church to the Montanists sometime after 200 AD.

 

Suzanne, God plainly says that a woman's hair is her covering.

He also says that nature teaches us that it is a shame for a man to have long hair. I believe that God is simply, and plainly, restating that fact when He says (1 Cor 11:4 KJV) Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

In other words, if a woman's long hair is her covering, and if a man should not be covered, then we can conclude that a man should not have long hair.

However, you might see this differently, and that is okay.

Julia

[ March 18, 2002, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: KeeperOfMyHome ]

 

I love this I back up my argument and I am ignorant. Both A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature by Brauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker and little old Strong's agrees with me.
You're pathetic Mr Cassidy. I guess you are used to being the only person who can claim any knowledge of Greek.

In case you didn't notice I never claimed he was Pope, try reading for a change instead insulting.

Your website suggests otherwise. First Baptist Church

[ March 18, 2002, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Godmetal ]