Jews and salvation

[john6:63]

A similar discussion was entertained in the John Hagee thread, but I wanted to discuss the Jewish salvation apart from Pastor Hagee.

The Jews and salvation have been a question that I have struggled with for years now. I mean I really struggle with this. I believe John 14:6, but Matthew 23:37-39, seems to me suggest that Jesus knew that Israel would reject Him as the Messiah. I can’t find the verse, but doesn’t it say somewhere that God closed the eyes of the Jewish people for the sake of the gentiles?

I believe that the God of Christianity is the same God the Jews worship. Unlike Allah of Islam, whose characteristics are lopsided when compared to the characteristics of the God of the Bible.

If God did shut the eyes of the Jewish people for the sake of the gentiles, then they (Jews) got a raw deal if their going to Hell for doing what God intended for them to do.

I’ve talked w/ my Pastor about this and all he can say is John 14:6, but I need more. I don’t know why I struggle with this. I have no Jewish friends to witness to or ask them.

Help!

 

[Johnv]

IMO, the Bible is clear: Whoever receives the opportunity to receive Christ (aka, hears the Gospel) and rejects it, is condemned to Hell. But this is to the individual, not to a nation or group of persons.

What is often at debate is what constitutes hearing the Gospel. It's biblically plausible that, for those who have never truly heard the Gospel while on this earth, God will take that into account. But since I'm not God, I'll leave that judgement up to him, rather than up to me.

Suffice it to say, it's categorically wrong, imo, to lay out a blanket statement and say that "all the Jews are going to Hell". We're simply not allowed to judge a person's salvation, period.

 

[john6:63]

Thanks Johnv, defiantly something to think about.

I agree w/ you about “all the Jews are going to Hell.” I know some Jews have accepted Christ as savior. I should’ve said something like those Jews who don’t follow the New Testament or something as such.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by john6:63:
I can’t find the verse, but doesn’t it say somewhere that God closed the eyes of the Jewish people for the sake of the gentiles?

Rom 11:25ff.

I believe that the God of Christianity is the same God the Jews worship.

The Jews currently do not worship the God of Christianity, nor did they in the time of Christ. They rejected Christ and Christ, in John 8, makes it explicit that they were not worshipping the God they claim to. To worship the true God requires accepting Jesus Christ.

If God did shut the eyes of the Jewish people for the sake of the gentiles, then they (Jews) got a raw deal if their going to Hell for doing what God intended for them to do.

They did not get a raw deal. They are rejected for their own sin of rejecting the Messiah.

A Jew, today, must accept Jesus Christ like everyone else does. Don't confuse personal salvation with God's national plan for Israel. These are two different things though they are related, as both the OT and NT makes clear.

 

[john6:63]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by john6:63:
I can’t find the verse, but doesn’t it say somewhere that God closed the eyes of the Jewish people for the sake of the gentiles?

Rom 11:25ff.

I believe that the God of Christianity is the same God the Jews worship.

The Jews currently do not worship the God of Christianity, nor did they in the time of Christ. They rejected Christ and Christ, in John 8, makes it explicit that they were not worshipping the God they claim to. To worship the true God requires accepting Jesus Christ.

If God did shut the eyes of the Jewish people for the sake of the gentiles, then they (Jews) got a raw deal if their going to Hell for doing what God intended for them to do.

They did not get a raw deal. They are rejected for their own sin of rejecting the Messiah.

A Jew, today, must accept Jesus Christ like everyone else does. Don't confuse personal salvation with God's national plan for Israel. These are two different things though they are related, as both the OT and NT makes clear. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks Pastor Larry, reading Romans 11:25 helps a little! But a few questions, I hope you don’t mind.

What verses in John 8 are you referring too? I don’t see this in John 8. Granted they (Jews) rejected Christ, but before Jesus, the Jews were worshiping the same God, as did Abraham, Isaac and Jacob worshipped. And I would venture to say that the God I worship and pray to today is still the same God as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God is unchanging. I have to believe that the Jews today still worship the same God, as did Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Then again, I see your point, if one rejects Christ, he’s essentially rejecting God. Since they are one of the same.

The Jews still read and study the OT books right? I read and study the OT too. It’s just hard for me to comprehend that they are two different Gods.

I think I’m gonna schedule another meeting my Pastor. Thanks again.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The Jews currently do not worship the God of Christianity, nor did they in the time of Christ.

OTOH, one could use Paul's example with the Athenians that, those who faithfully seek to worship God as they know him, are, in ignorance, worshipping God. Paul did not chastise them for worship of a "false god". Instead, Paul praised them for their faithfulness, imperfect and incomplete though it was (which he then used as an opportunity for evangelism).

Of course, worship and salvation are two completely different issues.

 

[john6:63]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Of course, worship and salvation are two completely different issues.

Good point Johnv.

 

[russell55]

Of course, worship and salvation are two completely different issues.

Huh? Can you explain what you mean by this?

 

[john6:63]

I found this on the web about Jews, Muslims and Christianity. I posted the article along with the link. It’s starting to make a little more sense to me
Click here for link

Second, how similar are Christianity and Islam? This is quite central in our world today and we need to think biblically about this question. It is true that Jews, Christians and Muslims believe that there is one God. In the words of Darrell Bock, “It would be better to say that Jews, Muslims, and Christians seek to worship the one God who is the creator, but that does not mean they worship the same God.” What then is the difference? Uniquely, genuine biblical Christianity believes that God is a personal being, who is highlighted as a relationally distinct Father, Son and Spirit within the essence of one God. There is therefore love and communication within the godhead. Also, therefore, there is a relational dimension between God and His creation. One sees that in Genesis 1 and 2, where God seeks a relationship with the humans whom He has created in His own image. One also sees that in His desire to redeem His image bearers who have rebelled against Him. That redemption is accomplished by the Godman, Jesus Christ. Hear Bock again, “Thus where Islam highlights submission and mercy and Judaism focuses on ethnicity, ethics and law, Christianity highlights the compassion of God in giving of himself on our behalf to restore us to relationship with him. Where the symbol of Islam is the submission represented in the very name of its faith, and the symbol of Judaism is the star of David to point to God’s unique relationship to Israel, the core of Christianity is the offer of Christ to forgive sin for anyone who turns to him in faith, which is why Christ is in the name of this faith.” The different views of God in these three religions lead to different views of salvation, judgment, law, grace and faith. They lead to different faiths. One cannot say that Jews, Muslims and Christians all worship the same God.

I assume this Brock guy is a columnist or writer for the Kansas City star newspaper.

 

[dawna]

I thought this article might help

http://www.shema.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=64

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by john6:63:
What verses in John 8 are you referring too? I don’t see this in John 8.

John 8:42 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

The whole argument of John 8:30 to the end of the chapter is about how the Jews claim to worship God but reject Christ. Christ makes the same point by the way in John 5 and John makes the point in 1 John 2.

The fact is that when the Jews rejected Jesus, they ceased to worship God.

The Jews still read and study the OT books right? I read and study the OT too. It’s just hard for me to comprehend that they are two different Gods.

But we must remember that refusal to accept Jesus as the Messiah and to worship him is refusal to worship God. Jesus said that the OT testified of him (John 8:38-39) and the Jews refused to come to him that they may have life.

You can't worship God without accepting and worshipping Jesus Christ. Of course, the OT was different because Jesus Christ had not yet been revealed. In his life, Jesus made it clear that honoring the FAther meant honoring the Son.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Johnv:
OTOH, one could use Paul's example with the Athenians that, those who faithfully seek to worship God as they know him, are, in ignorance, worshipping God. Paul did not chastise them for worship of a "false god". Instead, Paul praised them for their faithfulness, imperfect and incomplete though it was (which he then used as an opportunity for evangelism).

I think you misread this. Paul in fact did condemn their worship as an inadequate and self-serving measn to worship God. He called it a time of ignorance (he called them stupid). Then he told them it was time to repent. That can hardly be called "praising them." I think the Acts 17 passage is a prime passage on how to deal wiht false gods. You don't tolerate them and claim we are all getting to the same God. You point out the utter foolishness of such worship and command men to repent because there is a judgment coming.

Of course, worship and salvation are two completely different issues.

Not at all, in the Christian sense anyway. Evangelism is all about worship. The Father is seeking worshippers to worship him in spirit and truth. You cannot worship God apart from true salvation in Christ alone.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by russell55:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Of course, worship and salvation are two completely different issues.

Huh? Can you explain what you mean by this? </font>[/QUOTE]Worship is the respect and devotion we give to God. It's something we do.

Salvation is deliverance from the penalty of sin. It's something God does.

We don't worship because we're saved. We don't worship to be saved. We worship because it's something God deserves.

Salvation isn't imparted to us because we worship, and it's not something imparted to us to get us to worship.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Worship is the expectation of every believer. To fail to worship is to fail to be obedient.

Worship is impossible for an unbeliever. That was the actual point.

 

[russell55]

Salvation is deliverance from the penalty of sin. It's something God does.]

I think your def of salvation is way too narrow. Our salvation is always grounded on what God (through Christ) did for us, but it includes reversing everything that we lost in the fall.

We don't worship because we're saved. We don't worship to be saved. We worship because it's something God deserves.

I would completely disagree with this. We give God his due as a result of His saving work within us. And we are justified (or saved) on condition of faith, and isn't faith giving God what he deserves--or worship?

But this is probably all taking this thread off track. Thank you for clarifying your statement.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Jews before Jesus was born were saved through faith in God as Paul exclaims about Abraham. Jews after Jesus, such as my dad and I, are saved through faith in Jesus Christ. Of course, then again, Abraham also had faith in Jesus (although he may or may not have known it) because Jesus is God. Therefore, the Jews who rejected and still reject Christ today would be considered apostates because they have turned away from the one true God. They have rejected God. This is not an uncommon occurence, even in the Old Testament. Just read the prophets sometime.

Joseph Botwinick