Joel Osteen

[Chemnitz]

Your allusion to the prophets of Baal and Rev. Osteen is a sub-christian judgment. You are allowed your personal view but we all have one. At least Osteen is not telling people to study the Bible and the Book of Mormon. This would be totally wrong.

Your right he isn't pushing the book of mormon, he is pushing a quasi-new age feel good message i.e his "discover the power within" advertizing slogan on his billboards.

I made the allusion because you are trying to justify this man on the basis of his numbers alone, not on the quality or lack there of of his messages.

We could probably preach the same words as Pastors Osteen, Hinn or Copeland not not get the same amount of people coming out to hear us.

Probably not as there aren't many who are willing to sacrifice the truth upon the altar of Numbers.

Osteen invites people to receive Jesus. To me this is doing the right thing.

Altar calls a christian does not make.

Many of you have a critical spirit which is unlike Jesus our Lord.

Like Jesus didn't say some harsh things in criticing people

"Matthew 15:14 Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit." "

Only an idiot does not know what is right and wrong.

You don't get out very often do you? If what you said is true there wouldn't be debates over homosexuality, abortion, or a hundred other issues.


The biggest problem Mr. Osteen is that he never preaches the Gospel, everytime I have turned his show on I have heard him say if you believe you will recieve this(fill in the blank material blessing), generally followed or proceeded by a touchy feely story.

 

[Johnv]

He preaches the Gospel often enough. Interestingly, another poster complained that he didn't hear the Gospel until 15 minutes into the program.

Anyhoo, the issue of any false teachings he might be engaging in is different from whether he preaches the Gospel.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Your allusion to the prophets of Baal and Rev. Osteen is a sub-christian judgment. You are allowed your personal view but we all have one. At least Osteen is not telling people to study the Bible and the Book of Mormon. This would be totally wrong.

Saying at least he isn't pushing the book of mormon is just like saying... 'Sure he's a thief and a drug addict, but at least he's not a murderer'.

Jesus said 'a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump'

In mixing Osteens New Age philosophy with any of the scripture, he has defiled the scripture; turning the truth into a lie.

I will not support Osteen, but rather pray that God shows him His paths and teaches him His ways.

 

[Ray Berrian]

'Altar calls a christian does not make.'

Sounds like I have engaged another Calvinist . . . Jesus called people to decide whether or not they would believe in Him. For example, "The Rich Younger Ruler" would not sell all that he had to follow Jesus. He decided for himself to his own eternal demise.

After hearing the Gospel a minister has every right to call for a repentant, commitment to Christ, whether they are standing in church, out of church or kneeling at a church altar.

Many homosexuals know their perversion is sin but they will not give up on their lifestyle. Other sinners of all shades know what is sin, but don't care. The natural man does not respond to spiritual concerns, unless the Holy Spirit first draws them to Himself so they understand their sinful defilement before the holy Lord God.

The curious thing is that some Christians do not understand their critical spirit is also sinful. That is not to say that we should not try to correct wrong doctrines and human faulty ideas. Writing a letter to some of these men might get them to review their emphasis, if they are opened to the guidance of the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[Chemnitz]

Sounds like I have engaged another Calvinist . . . Jesus called people to decide whether or not they would believe in Him. For example, "The Rich Younger Ruler" would not sell all that he had to follow Jesus. He decided for himself to his own eternal demise.

Far from it, if you checked my profile you would have seen that I am neither Arminian or Calvinist.

He preaches the Gospel often enough. Interestingly, another poster complained that he didn't hear the Gospel until 15 minutes into the program.

Never heard him once preach the Gospel once, with him there is something you always have to do first before you can get it.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
...Osteen invites people to receive Jesus. To me this is doing the right thing.

Many of you have a critical spirit which is unlike Jesus our Lord.

Question is, WHICH (j)Jesus is he inviting people to receive -

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

There are many jesus' and gospels out there masquerading as the Gospel of Christ. Problem is, they are from another spirit, not the Holy Spirit.

And it's not a "critical" spirit but a "discerning" one, something you seem to lack -

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Jude 1:3-4 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

He who has ears...let him hear!


Ray

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Paul warned in Galatians 1 that if any man, or an angel from heaven bring you any other gospel than that we have preached, let him be accursed.

Pretty harsh judgment, yet that is the seriousness of preaching a doctrine contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Christ's gospel is not a 'feel good about your self gospel'.

Paul wrote in Romans ...

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

and in Philippians ...

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Any gospel that preaches that we should feel good about our flesh is preaching contrary to the sound doctrine of the Bible.

He must increase, we must decrease.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Your allusion to the prophets of Baal and Rev. Osteen is a sub-christian judgment. You are allowed your personal view but we all have one. At least Osteen is not telling people to study the Bible and the Book of Mormon. This would be totally wrong.

Fundamentalist preacher have been hammering on the subject of sin for mega years. Only an idiot does not know what is right and wrong. People like to hear how to improve their Christian life and their interrelations with husband and wife and others around them.

We could probably preach the same words as Pastors Osteen, Hinn or Copeland not not get the same amount of people coming out to hear us.

The Lord chooses who He can best speak his truth through; it is not your decision.

Osteen invites people to receive Jesus. To me this is doing the right thing.

Many of you have a critical spirit which is unlike Jesus our Lord.

The likes of Osteen and Hinn invite people to a false Jesus, a human Jesus, a Jesus that is no longer divine. They might as well invite him to the Jesus of Islam for He isn't the Jesus of the Bible. I want you to look at how you have contradicted yourself:

In my book Rev. Hinn and Copeland are genuine Christian pastors who have their calling from God the Holy Spirit. Do they always get things right? No. And many pastors are merely giving the montra that they learned along the way. The important question is are they maturing Christians in the faith? Are they learning Biblical truth? These men call people to faith in Christ. This is the most important thing! (posted February 10, 2006 01:16 AM, by Ray Berrian in the "Benny Hinn Discussions" thread)

Here you say that they are "genuine Christian pastors."

I like what you said because it is the truth. Preach it brother! It no longer is 'rightly dividing the Word of truth' it is teaching men and women the denominational mantra by jamming a few verse around the idea--making it appear correct.

Thank God I studied Greek in Bible college. I do research words and have found that, for example, in Hebrews 1:2 the word 'worlds' does not mean the planets, universe or galaxies. It is the Greek word meaning --by whom He also made the 'ages.' The KJV translators have not always interpreted words correctly as is true with other translations. That is why serious minded pastors take time to learn the language. That is why Protestantism has a lot of preachers who just got saved and are out preaching the Gospel in store front churches. I am sure they do some good but Bible scholars they are not. That is why the epistles say, in affect 'lay your hands suddenly on no man.' A period of study should be required in all denominations. (posted January 20, 2006, 02:09 PM, by Ray Berrian in "Tongues Cease of Themselves" thread)

Here, as in many other places you indicate that every man of God should have a Bible College or Seminary education. You lamblast Prostestant preachers who don't. Consider the next quote carefully.

Hinn readily admits that much of the misunderstanding that has arisen from his teachings is the result of his lack of formal Bible training. In fact, almost immediately after his having been "born again," Hinn says, "The Lord launched me into ministry almost overnight."

In spite of these circumstances, Hinn founded his present church, Orlando Christian Center, in 1983. Beginning with just a few hundred members, that church now boasts an average weekly attendance of over 7,000. In addition, Hinn conducts worldwide crusades and has a daily television program that airs over the Trinity Broadcasting Network, headed by Jan and Paul Crouch.

http://www.discernment.org/faithhealers/benny.htm

Benny Hinn has no formal education. He is a disciple of the heretic Kathryn Khulman.
"Hinn marks the year of his being born again as 1972 when he was about 20 years old. It was at a Kathryn Kuhlman service the following year that he says he had a "profound spiritual experience.""
"A profound spiritual experience" is not salvation.
"Hinn claims to actually be a channel for God--that God enters him and takes over his mind and tongue to the point where he is unaware of what he has said."
--This is the occult. It is the work of a demon. It is not of God. It is not the way that God operates; it is the way that Satan operates. Hinn does not preach the Jesus of the Bible, but a demonic inspired Jesus.
He has had no formal education whatsoever, and yet you continue to say that he is a man of God. Why do you defend this man and others like him, like Oesteen?
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

All these men who have 'another spirit than the Holy Spirit' are most often your suspicions about whether other preacher types are Christian or not.

When Osteen calls people to receive Jesus he is referring to Christ Jesus the Savior of those who believe.

Some of you have the mentality of the man who said, "I'm saved, my wife is saved our children are saved--we four and no more!'

 

[Ray Berrian]

Mega years ago I hear Kathryn Khulman preach on radio. I was young but with my little knowledge I believe she preached Christ.

Yes I hear what you are saying.

As to Rev. Hinn not being taught the Scriptures-- to me means, that at times he probably does say things that we might question. Someone said, he said, 'We are little Christs.' I believe he meant that as Christians who have the Holy Spirit we represent Him through our lives and obedience to the Gospel. But, others might say--he is preaching false doctrine. No one can read his mind or conscience as to what he really meant by his statement.

The thing that makes a person truly Christian is to believe that Jesus is Divine and that He has removed the sins of all who truly believe and trust in Him.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

As to Rev. Hinn not being taught the Scriptures-- to me means, that at times he probably does say things that we might question. Someone said, he said, 'We are little Christs.' I believe he meant that as Christians who have the Holy Spirit we represent Him through our lives and obedience to the Gospel. But, others might say--he is preaching false doctrine. No one can read his mind or conscience as to what he really meant by his statement.

The thing that makes a person truly Christian is to believe that Jesus is Divine and that He has removed the sins of all who truly believe and trust in Him.

I believe he meant What you believe he meant is of no consequence. What he actually believes is. Yes he said: "We are all little gods running around on this earth."
He believes that Christ is human, not divine.
He believes that man is divine.
He believes that Satan atoned for our sin and not Christ.

Go back and read through the thread. How much more heresy do you need to see that this man believes before you will believe that he indeed is a heretic?
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

I do not believe your statements as to your: He believes that...'

If Rev. Hinn would respond to my letter I would outright ask him, but he probably gets multi-thousands of letters of affirmation and negative letters.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I do not believe your statements as to your: He believes that...'

If Rev. Hinn would respond to my letter I would outright ask him, but he probably gets multi-thousands of letters of affirmation and negative letters.

I suggest you read through the thread again. Read through the Benny Hinn discussions thread. I have asked you why you never answered Marcia's post who outright stated the same allegations. All of them can be documented, as to where and when he either said or wrote them. Why then would you disbelieve them?
DHK

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Tam, the passages you cite do not support what Osteen teaches. As Chemnitz said, those passages do not say we must say things blessings in order to get them.

As I posted earlier, our words do have consequences, as the Bible tells us. If I gossip or blaspheme or lie, etc. there will be consequences. But the consequences are to the words I am saying and their effects on the truth or on people, etc. It's not that the words themselves have a magical power or that I can have power by using certain words. That is occultic -- it's one of the basic foundational beliefs of the occult.

Marcia,
Nobody thinks that they can be the one that blasphemes.
What if you have blasphemed someone that is of God and you attributed what they said to Satan have you not blasphemed against the Holy Spirit.
Paul said that he blasphemed but did it ignorantly.
Is it possible that you may have blasphemed while speaking against certain preachers. Is it possible that you have done this ignorantly
I am capable of misjudging someone. Will rogers said "We are all ignorant ..Just about different things."
I personally try to watch what I say because i may be ignorantly misjudging someone.
Sometimes I admit that I have failed in this area.
Is it possible that you have done the same?

[ March 09, 2006, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: atestring ]

 

[tamborine lady]

Marcia said:As I posted earlier, our words do have consequences, as the Bible tells us, If I gossip or blaspheme or lie, etc. there will be consequences. But the consequences are to the words I am saying and their effects on the truth or on people, etc. It's not that the words themselves have a magical power or that I can have power by using certain words. That is occultic -- it's one of the basic foundational beliefs of the occult.

Tam says: By your own admission, our words do have consequences. Why do you assume that only the bad stuff we say is included in that?

The Power of death and life is in the tongue. There's no getting away from the scripture!

None of us, not even Joel Osteen, believes that there is any "magical" power in the words.

The proper word is "super natural power".

We need to watch what we say; good or bad!

Why can't ya'll see that?

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

[DHK]

That is not what Oesteen is teaching. If it is than he doesn't need a Bible. He can just preach out of Norman Vincent Peale's book: "The Power of Positive Thinking." There is no difference.
Oesteen believes that man is greater than God.
He believes that God is like a puppet that can be carried around in your pocked. Your words command god, like your words command the genie in the lamp to do whatever you want. Bad words (commands) command the genie (god) to do bad things. God words (commands) command the genie (god) to do good things. This is Oesteen's god. It is heretical. It is not the God of the Bible, but a false God. Again I ask the question, which God do you worship: the god of Oesteen or the God of the Bible? They are not the same God.
DHK

 

[atestring]

dk&h,
"I have never heard you. How do I know you are not a heretic?
I would be suspicious of you because you seem to think almost everyone is a heretic. to be honest that makes me leary of you.
If you spend all that time looking at preacheres when do you find time to look to Jesus who is to be the author and finisher of ones faith.
Did God call you to slam everyone that disagrees with you.
ARe Christian obligated to agree with you personally . If so please give chapter and verse to support this.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by atestring:
dk&h,
"I have never heard you. How do I know you are not a heretic?
I would be suspicious of you because you seem to think almost everyone is a heretic. to be honest that makes me leary of you.
If you spend all that time looking at preacheres when do you find time to look to Jesus who is to be the author and finisher of ones faith.
Did God call you to slam everyone that disagrees with you.
ARe Christian obligated to agree with you personally . If so please give chapter and verse to support this.

This is the value of sola scriptura.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I don't expect yuo to be gullible and believe everything I say, or for that matter everything everyone else says.
Be like the Bereans. Check things out for yourself.
I have posted in this forum for enough years and in enough threads that you ought to know what I believe by now. If you don't do a search and find out. I am sure that you will find enough information to find out what I believe. Then check it out by comparing it with what the Bible says. Then make your own decision. If I am wrong let me know where I am wrong. We can discuss it on the basis of the Bible. That is the one thing that all my discussions revolve around--the Bible is the final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine.
And concerning false teachers, false prophets, we are commanded to expose them and be aware of them.
They speak publicly. They need to be publicly rebuked.
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

Whatever happened to scriptures like the following?

Prov:15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.

Or have you discarded all appearance of civility?

When trying to get people to see my point of view, I really do try to do it in kindness.

Peace,

Tam

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atestring:
dk&h,
"I have never heard you. How do I know you are not a heretic?
I would be suspicious of you because you seem to think almost everyone is a heretic. to be honest that makes me leary of you.
If you spend all that time looking at preacheres when do you find time to look to Jesus who is to be the author and finisher of ones faith.
Did God call you to slam everyone that disagrees with you.
ARe Christian obligated to agree with you personally . If so please give chapter and verse to support this.

This is the value of sola scriptura.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I don't expect yuo to be gullible and believe everything I say, or for that matter everything everyone else says.
Be like the Bereans. Check things out for yourself.
I have posted in this forum for enough years and in enough threads that you ought to know what I believe by now. If you don't do a search and find out. I am sure that you will find enough information to find out what I believe. Then check it out by comparing it with what the Bible says. Then make your own decision. If I am wrong let me know where I am wrong. We can discuss it on the basis of the Bible. That is the one thing that all my discussions revolve around--the Bible is the final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine.
And concerning false teachers, false prophets, we are commanded to expose them and be aware of them.
They speak publicly. They need to be publicly rebuked.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]I am all for exposing false teachers . I just disagree with you on who is a false teacher.
I personally am not impressed you you. [Edited out a long string of personal attacks. YYour original post will be brought before the BB Administrative Council for violations of Posting Rules 3 and 4.]

[ March 10, 2006, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]