Joel Osteen

[D28guy]

Marcia,

You mentioned the title of his book, "Your Best Life Now", and then said...

Get that title? God wants us to be happy, wealthy, healthy, and just having a great ol' time. Never mind the NT teachings on being ready to suffer persecution and consider it a blessing, or laying down your life for your brother."

How do you know he doesnt mention those things? Who says it either/or? They are not mutually exculsive. Its both.

Paul was persecuted greatly and at one time chained in the worst part of a 1st century jail.
So where multitudes of christians in the 1st century. Yet the scriptures...in the midst of all of that...speak of "In all these things, we are more than a conquerers, through Him who loved us", and that that "I can do all things, through Christ who strenghthens me. me".

We can live victoriously..."I have come that they might have life, and that more abundantly", in the midst of trials and hardships, and the greatests part of that is through internalising, and counting on, the great and wonderful truths that are true of us, irregardless of what is going on all around us..

From Romans...

"Be transformed, by the renewing of your mind"

And 2nd Peter...

"As His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which we have been given exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature."

All of that is true no matter what is going on in our lives, and no matter how much hardship we are going through.

This is how we can have victory in the midst of hardship.

Marcia, you take issue with the title of his book, "Your best life, now" Well...I have had great times, and very hard times in my 23 years of life in Christ. And yet I can most definetly say that "my best life" has without question been "now".

I wouldnt trade the worst times of my 23 years as a born again person, for the best times of my years before Christ.

This is just basic biblical truth here, Marcia.

God bless,

Mike

 

[west]

Sinners in the hands of a angry God"
Edwards

"God in the hands of angry sinners "
Word of Faith Ministers

 

[music4Him]

AMEN Mike!

Preach it Brother! I have to agree wirh every thing you said.

Paul said in Phil.4:12, I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: .... This gives me an idea that we can have good times and not being persecuted 24-7. Even so I can have a good life here and I can go through (not around) bad times and still have peace and hope and be filled with joy.
Rom 15:13 -
Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
When the God's word speaks about abounding and suppling our needs...arn't we allowed to believe it without someone putting a tag on us.... or are we suppost to srug it off and say well health and happieness not for us.... we are suppost to suffer? I don't think so.... I claim God's word for my needs (not my wants).
Now this may be where WOF people get it confused... Needs vs. Wants, Material vs. Spiritual, ect.

Music4Him

 

[Marcia]

Mike,

I spent about 2 hrs. today reading several chapters in Osteen's book.

First of all, the renewing of our mind comes through the Holy Spirit, not through techniques taught by men like Osteen. Secondly, when Osteen says "your best life now" he means wealth, health, and worldly success. That is what he is talking about. Is that what the NT is talking about?

Osteens also says, "Do your part and God will do his part." He says this in the context of his teaching that if we want something, God will give it to us if we do certain things such as:
Speak blessings out loud (if we don't, we can't get blessed)
Do something to get money: he actually suggests that if we want financial abundance, maybe we should buy someone a cup of coffee

Give so you can get. That's one of the messages of the book.

Speak positive things out loud or you can't get them or won't get "blessed."

Abundance is in terms of material and sensual satisfaction.

Osteen's book is full of New Thought teachings about affirmations, how negative thoughts will bring negative things, and how you can give to get. It's a book of techniques. This is what New Thought is, particularly the New Thought techniques taught by Ernest Holmes, founder of the Church of Religious Science, and big influence on Norman V. Peale and Robert Schuller.
It's a very mechanical religion -- do this and get that, pull that string and God does that, say this and get that. And it's all about you, you, you.

I recently gave a talk and Osteen came up in the Q & A. Afterwards, a woman came up to me and said she had been listening to Osteen and she had become afraid to say anything negative, for fear she would bring about some kind of disaster on herself. She was even afraid to confess fears and worries to God. This is the kind of consequence of these kind of teachings, Mike.

There is no biblical truth in the things I have put in this post from Osteen's book. They are a perversion of God's word; they are not God's word.

Oh,, it might also interest those of you defending Osteen to know this:
On Bill O'Reilley's show, O'Reilley asked Osteen: "If I don't believe in Jesus, would I go to hell?" And Osteen replied, "I wouldn't want to say anything like that."

 

[D28guy]

Marcia,

"First of all, the renewing of our mind comes through the Holy Spirit, not through techniques taught by men like Osteen."

"Techniques"?

In the message you referred to, and I posted, the "techniques" were nothing more than internalising the promises in the scriptures that are true of every christian alive, "renewing our minds" according to those promises, and counting on them, becaise God is trustworthy.

I have posted previously the scriptures that make clear that God wants us to do that very thing.

Secondly, when Osteen says "your best life now" he means wealth, health, and worldly success. That is what he is talking about.
Is that what the NT is talking about?

Not necesarrily. We all know that "bad things happen to good people", as the old saying goes.

Generally though, as a *general principle*...and thats all I am saying...*generally* when we live Gods way, things will go well for us. If we dont lie, we wont be caught in lies. If we dont shoplift, we wont go to jail for shoplifting. If we dont abuse alcholhol, we wont be thrown in jail for public intoxication. If we dont commit adultery, we wont be shot and killed by someones husband/wife. Etc etc etc. You get the idea.

There is nothing wrong with promoting the idea that being "godly" in our actions and speech will cause things to go well with us, as long as it is balanced with the fact that their are no *absolute* guarentees. People who have never smoked a cigarette in their lives die of lung cancer. People who have never cheated the government out of one penny on their income taxes have gotten in trouble because of a clerical mistake somewhere. Etc etc.

"Osteens also says, "Do your part and God will do his part.""

Kind of like: "give and it will be given you, pressed down and shaken together, will men give unto your bosom"?

Or: "He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully"?

He says this in the context of his teaching that if we want something, God will give it to us if we do certain things such as:
Speak blessings out loud (if we don't, we can't get blessed)

If he means that speaking aloud the promises and assurances in the scriptures that are true of us, then its certainly not a bad thing to say them out loud. How can it be a bad thing to speak out Gods wonderful scriptures?

Many people in some churches recite creeds aloud every sunday.

If he means they must be spoken out loud for them to be appropriated, then I dont agree at all. Thats wrong.

Do something to get money: he actually suggests that if we want financial abundance, maybe we should buy someone a cup of coffee

Again, if he only means that if we "give" it will in some way be "given back to us", or that if we are generous than God will bless us in return, then I agree completly.

If he means that God is a heavenly cash register, and he will make us to be dripping in wealth and opulance, than he would be waaay out of balance for sure.

"I recently gave a talk and Osteen came up in the Q & A. Afterwards, a woman came up to me and said she had been listening to Osteen and she had become afraid to say anything negative, for fear she would bring about some kind of disaster on herself. She was even afraid to confess fears and worries to God. This is the kind of consequence of these kind of teachings, Mike."

What she shared with you is without question error and I would agree with you completly about that. Somehow or another she has come to some erronious concusions. It may be as a result of bad teaching from Osteen, or it may be a result of taking some teaching to an extreme that Osteen never intended. As I have said before, I dont know that much about him...only the message you warned of...and I went through practically the whole thing and saw nothing but good biblical counseling in there.

I do agree that there is excessive teaching out there. I know a pastor from our city whos wife came down with cancer. He...and this hurts me Marcia very much to type this because I knew her and she was a wonderful woman...he would not let her go to a doctor, stop work as a legal secretary, or anything at all because that would be showing "lack of faith". She was to confess that she is "healed", and that was that.

She died in short order at 41, I believe. He withdrew from the ministry and the church was disbanded. Absolutly heartwrenching.

But I have found that to be the exception, rather than the rule. Every other WOF church I have known anything about preaches that God can and wants to miraculaously heal, and we should hope for that...but by all means go to the doctor and do what he says!

God bless,

Mike

 

[atestring]

What is the fuss about Joel talking about prosperity and health
I want to be more prosperous and more healthy I want to prosper and be in health even as my soul prospers. ( By the way that came from the Bible not a new age saying) Anyone that says that they do not want to be more prosperous and healthy life is a liar. (Take that as a personal attack if you want to but any thinking person would agree. If you don't agree then go sell your computer and give the money to the poor and spend your time doing something besides living on the internet.

 

[ScottEmerson]

III John says that John wishes that Gaius' physical health would be as well as his spirit's health. That doesn't mean that it will always be that way.

In fact, I wonder that if our physical health were the same as our spiritual health, how many of us would be at work today? How many of us would be sick in bed? How many of us would be on our death bed?

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by atestring:
What is the fuss about Joel talking about prosperity and health
I want to be more prosperous and more healthy I want to prosper and be in health even as my soul prospers. ( By the way that came from the Bible not a new age saying) Anyone that says that they do not want to be more prosperous and healthy life is a liar. (Take that as a personal attack if you want to but any thinking person would agree. If you don't agree then go sell your computer and give the money to the poor and spend your time doing something besides living on the internet.

To prosper in the OT often meant succeeding at something -- not necessarily becoming wealthy.

Look at the NT -- where does it say we should seek wealth? Doesn't Jesus say to store our treasures in heaven?

7For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

8And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

9But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 1 Tim 6.7-10

I am not saying it's wrong to want income to clothe, shelter, and feed yourself, but money is not supposed to be our priority. Nor does the NT promise good health. And the passage above teaches us to be content with what we have.

Here's more:

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, ''Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." Heb 13:5

Do not wear yourself out to get rich; have the wisdom to show restraint. Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone, for they will surely sprout wings and fly off to the sky like an eagle. - Proverbs 23:4,5

Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God. 2 Cor 2:17

Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 1 Tim 3:2,3

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, ''Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." Heb 13:5

You should read this:
Does God Promise Health and Wealth?

The New Age and New Thought teach that if you affirm you will have money, a raise, health, a new car, etc. then you can have it. Techniques to get these things are taught by Ernest Holmes, as I mentioned earlier (and were passed on by Peale and Schuller). Osteen teaches similar techniques in his book -- speaking things aloud so you can get them. He's not teaching prayer, he's teaching saying things aloud so you can get them. He even talks about repeating them. This is all New Thought and Word Faith philsophy, which I've been studying and reading on for 12 yrs.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by D28guy:
Marcia,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"First of all, the renewing of our mind comes through the Holy Spirit, not through techniques taught by men like Osteen."

"Techniques"?

In the message you referred to, and I posted, the "techniques" were nothing more than internalising the promises in the scriptures that are true of every christian alive, "renewing our minds" according to those promises, and counting on them, becaise God is trustworthy.

I have posted previously the scriptures that make clear that God wants us to do that very thing.
</font>[/QUOTE]Mike, you have not looked at his book and you are ignoring some of the points I made.

Osteen's beliefs also explain why he did not want to say on TV that someone who does not believe in Jesus will go to hell. He does not want to say anything negative. The guy is in bondage to his own teachings and is merely teaching more bondage to others.

Where does the Bible say we renew our own minds through techniques like declaring things out loud and never saying anything negative? Is the Bible a book of positive vs. negative? It's a book of sin vs. the righteousness of God and our need for redemption. But Osteen does not talk about this. He does not talk about sin or God's wrath on sin. Do you not have a problem with that? If your preacher never talked about God's wrath on sin and how we don't deserve God's grace but only said we need to be positive and God's blessings will come our way, would that be okay with you?

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by D28guy:
Generally though, as a *general principle*...and thats all I am saying...*generally* when we live Gods way, things will go well for us. If we dont lie, we wont be caught in lies. If we dont shoplift, we wont go to jail for shoplifting. If we dont abuse alcholhol, we wont be thrown in jail for public intoxication. If we dont commit adultery, we wont be shot and killed by someones husband/wife. Etc etc etc. You get the idea.

There is nothing wrong with promoting the idea that being "godly" in our actions and speech will cause things to go well with us, as long as it is balanced with the fact that their are no *absolute* guarentees. People who have never smoked a cigarette in their lives die of lung cancer. People who have never cheated the government out of one penny on their income taxes have gotten in trouble because of a clerical mistake somewhere. Etc etc

This about consequences to our actions. That is not what Osteen is talking about. He's talking about the consequences of negative thinking and negative words. If you say something negative, something negative will happen. This is actually occultic thinking; I know, I thought this way for years. It's part of the occult and of New Thought, and of Word Faith. This is not about you say something mean and someone gets mad. No, it's like this: You think that maybe you are sick, so you get sick. You think a negative thought like "I'm not a good person" and someone hits your car. You think, "Sharon is not a nice person" and you get robbed.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />He says this in the context of his teaching that if we want something, God will give it to us if we do certain things such as:
Speak blessings out loud (if we don't, we can't get blessed)

If he means that speaking aloud the promises and assurances in the scriptures that are true of us, then its certainly not a bad thing to say them out loud. How can it be a bad thing to speak out Gods wonderful scriptures?

Many people in some churches recite creeds aloud every sunday.

If he means they must be spoken out loud for them to be appropriated, then I dont agree at all. Thats wrong.

</font>[/QUOTE]We don't recite creeds to alter material reality, Mike. We recite them to affirm the essentials of the faith. He does mean they must be spoke out lout for them to be appropriated. That is EXACTLY what he means. Glad you agree this is wrong.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Do something to get money: he actually suggests that if we want financial abundance, maybe we should buy someone a cup of coffee

Again, if he only means that if we "give" it will in some way be "given back to us", or that if we are generous than God will bless us in return, then I agree completly.

If he means that God is a heavenly cash register, and he will make us to be dripping in wealth and opulance, than he would be waaay out of balance for sure.
</font>[/QUOTE]Check on your latter statement, though he, of course, does not use the words "heavenly cash register." His teachings are more subtle than that. Nor does he promise opulence, but he is saying we can have money and health if we say the right things and believe them and think them. These are not new techniques, as I've said dozens of times, but are very old techniques of the occult and of New Thought.

I do agree that there is excessive teaching out there. I know a pastor from our city whos wife came down with cancer. He...and this hurts me Marcia very much to type this because I knew her and she was a wonderful woman...he would not let her go to a doctor, stop work as a legal secretary, or anything at all because that would be showing "lack of faith". She was to confess that she is "healed", and that was that.

She died in short order at 41, I believe. He withdrew from the ministry and the church was disbanded. Absolutly heartwrenching.

But I have found that to be the exception, rather than the rule. Every other WOF church I have known anything about preaches that God can and wants to miraculaously heal, and we should hope for that...but by all means go to the doctor and do what he says!

God bless,

Mike

Osteen is not as blatant as some of the WF teachers and that is why I think he is dangerous. He does say things that are true; but he mixes them in with teachings that are clearly New Thought and Word Faith, but since most people are not familiar with those teachings, they don't see it. He makes it sound like common sense or like it's harmless. And that is why it is so disturbing.

Also, it seems the focus of his ministry is all "feel good about yourself" and just think positive and all will be solved. There is nothing in there about suffering for Christ or being willing to give your life to God despite the "negative" difficulties. In fact, several times in his book, he says that we should accept ourselves "faults and all." Really?? I don't think we are supposed to accept our "faults" (I guess he means sins but he won't say it that I could find). Sure, God loves us despite those sins, but we are not supposed to "accept" them as okay.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by atestring:
What is the fuss about Joel talking about prosperity and health
I want to be more prosperous and more healthy I want to prosper and be in health even as my soul prospers. ( By the way that came from the Bible not a new age saying) Anyone that says that they do not want to be more prosperous and healthy life is a liar. (Take that as a personal attack if you want to but any thinking person would agree. If you don't agree then go sell your computer and give the money to the poor and spend your time doing something besides living on the internet.

If you believe in the Prosperity and Health Gospel would you be willing to preach the "truth" of it (if there be one) to the masses of people in Bangledesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc. Are they that live in poverty 365 days of the year--an average income of less than $50.00 per month, permitted to partake of this prosperity gospel seeing that according to those that preach it, it also applies to material wealth as well as spiritual wealth. Since one of the major problems in the "health" of the children of all these nations is good drinking water, if you believe in such a gospel, are you also going to come and upgrade or give these nations proper water and sewage systems that they might have good water to drink. It is one thing to pray about their health. It is another thing to do something about it.
DHK

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atestring:
What is the fuss about Joel talking about prosperity and health
I want to be more prosperous and more healthy I want to prosper and be in health even as my soul prospers. ( By the way that came from the Bible not a new age saying) Anyone that says that they do not want to be more prosperous and healthy life is a liar. (Take that as a personal attack if you want to but any thinking person would agree. If you don't agree then go sell your computer and give the money to the poor and spend your time doing something besides living on the internet.

If you believe in the Prosperity and Health Gospel would you be willing to preach the "truth" of it (if there be one) to the masses of people in Bangledesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc. Are they that live in poverty 365 days of the year--an average income of less than $50.00 per month, permitted to partake of this prosperity gospel seeing that according to those that preach it, it also applies to material wealth as well as spiritual wealth. Since one of the major problems in the "health" of the children of all these nations is good drinking water, if you believe in such a gospel, are you also going to come and upgrade or give these nations proper water and sewage systems that they might have good water to drink. It is one thing to pray about their health. It is another thing to do something about it.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]I believe that God wants his people to prosper and be in health.
I bleieve taht god wants the message of prosperity and health to be preached and practiced in these poor nations. I b elieve that God wants me to prosper so that I can give to ministries taht work in these nations.
I have given and will continue to give to a ministry that digs well in some of these countries. i am glad tht God has blessed me so that I can give to such a minsistry. i pray that God will prosper me in a greater way so that I can increase the giving. I on't want anyone to have to drink contaminated water.
What about you. Are you doing anything to help the people in these nations?

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

"If you believe in the Prosperity and Health Gospel would you be willing to preach the "truth" of it (if there be one) to the masses of people in Bangledesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc. Are they that live in poverty 365 days of the year--an average income of less than $50.00 per month, permitted to partake of this prosperity gospel seeing that according to those that preach it, it also applies to material wealth as well as spiritual wealth. Since one of the major problems in the "health" of the children of all these nations is good drinking water, if you believe in such a gospel, are you also going to come and upgrade or give these nations proper water and sewage systems that they might have good water to drink. It is one thing to pray about their health. It is another thing to do something about it.

All of those people in those countries can experience victory while in the midst of terrible circumstances.

Why does it have to be either/or? Help people physically, or teach them how to live as christians?

Its not either/or...its all of it.

As has been posted, there are christian ministries in those contries, doing what they can do to help alleviate those terrible conditions.

There are also christian ministries in those countries who are preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, and giving these dear people the opportunity to turn from their false religions and for the 1st time in the life turn to the God that can get them out of hell, and into heaven.

And their are also christian ministries in those countries who can teach new believers how to live in the goodness of resurrection life, and experience abundant living...even in the midst of povery.

The eye can not say to the ear "I have no need of you", nor the ear to the hand "I have no need of you".

The body of Christ is an entire body...eyes, ears, hands, and feet...working together to take the whole counsel of god to these dear people.

God bless,

Mike