John 1: verse 12...alone? or does 1:13 explain it?

[Iconoclast]

jn1:10-13
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is a wonderful thing when a sinner receives or "welcomes The Lord Jesus Christ"
Many are eager to offer up Jn1:12 with an explanation that is directly contradicted by verse 13 saying the sinner in and of himself accepts or receives Jesus all by himself by an act of his will as if verse 13 does not exist...BUT IT DOES
When asked about it the person goes silent and moves along to another passage and does not comment on how the verses are connected. Chapter and verse divisions were added later, and these verses are clearly linked. Could you offer your explanation on why you do not connect these two verses as scripture does?

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is an opportunity to attempt it and yet no one seems to be able to step up....
I THINK WE KNOW WHY

 

[tyndale1946]

Anyone who ever sees their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will not be according to anything they did... Not according to what particular denomination they belong to and there are way too many to count but according to Gods Mercy, Love, and Grace... Gods WILL... Gods WAY... And according to Gods PURPOSE!

Btw... Welcome back Iconoclast... Brother Glen

Christ Alone!... Tread The Winepress Alone... And Saved His Own!

 

[HankD]

jn1:10-13
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is a wonderful thing when a sinner receives or "welcomes The Lord Jesus Christ"
Many are eager to offer up Jn1:12 with an explanation that is directly contradicted by verse 13 saying the sinner in and of himself accepts or receives Jesus all by himself by an act of his will as if verse 13 does not exist...BUT IT DOES
When asked about it the person goes silent and moves along to another passage and does not comment on how the verses are connected. Chapter and verse divisions were added later, and these verses are clearly linked. Could you offer your explanation on why you do not connect these two verses as scripture does?

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

They receive Him, He gives them power to become the sons of God. It is a cooperation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

They receive Him, He gives them power to become the sons of God. It is a cooperation.

Nope. They are born of God and they receive Him. Verse 13 explains vss 11 & 12.

 

[Iconoclast]

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

They receive Him, He gives them power to become the sons of God. It is a cooperation.

hey could you show me in verse 13 how it explains the cooperation. It looks like verse 13 gives an explanation for how the people came to receive Jesus and be made sons of God being that the natural man does not receive the things of the spirit of God thanks

 

[JonC]

Many are eager to offer up Jn1:12 with an explanation that is directly contradicted by verse 13 saying the sinner in and of himself accepts or receives Jesus all by himself by an act of his will as if verse 13 does not exist

I doubt you will get many takers. It has been my experience that most who are not Calvinists still do not believe that people come to God in and of themselves. I remember only one person arguing otherwise here...but I can't remember who.

 

[HankD]

hey could you show me in verse 13 how it explains the cooperation. It looks like verse 13 gives an explanation for how the people came to receive Jesus and be made sons of God being that the natural man does not receive the things of the spirit of God thanks

OK God willingly chose to give them the new birth.

Why? There must be a reason.
What did He see in you or I that made Him choose you or I seeing that we were dead at the time in trespass and sin.
Those He chose according to the counsel of His own will.

Yes it is most wonderful that He did and I will thank Him through eternity and will love to thank Him throughout eternity.

I just think we need to be careful not to discourage and even hinder those who are being called.

Jesus had that concern as well.

 

[MartyF]

Here is an opportunity to attempt it and yet no one seems to be able to step up....
I THINK WE KNOW WHY

I don't want to prematurely judge. You might just have a way which I am misinterpreting.

Why didn't you post this to the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate forum? Did you make a mistake?

Are you writing to all Christians? Or simply those who aren't Calvinists, Reformed Baptist, or whatever you call yourself?

The final question is more multiple choice. You can just choose the one or more that pertains to you. If you have another reason you can share it instead. It involves why you started this thread.

A. Did you start writing this because theological discussion is a hobby you enjoy? I'm not against that, but it doesn't seem like you're writing this as a hobbyist, but I could be wrong.

B. Did you write this to encourage others and build them up? How is this thread helping your audience feel better or help alleviate their pain and suffering?

C. Did you write this to promote action? What do you want your audience to do? Not think - do.

D. Is your audience doing some iniquity which you want to correct with this thread? What sin is your audience doing which you feel this thread is correcting?

E. Are you trying to promote one form of Christian behavior? For example, many pastors commonly spend one sermon out of the year to promote tithing.

F. Are you trying to stamp out false beliefs?

 

[InTheLight]

Many are eager to offer up Jn1:12 with an explanation that is directly contradicted by verse 13 saying the sinner in and of himself accepts or receives Jesus all by himself by an act of his will as if verse 13 does not exist...BUT IT DOES

Strawman.

Name someone on BB (or anyone, anywhere) that believes they can receive Jesus solely as an act of their own will.

Name someone on BB (or anyone, anywhere) that believes they were born again by their own will and not by the power of God.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[Iconoclast]

I doubt you will get many takers. It has been my experience that most who are not Calvinists still do not believe that people come to God in and of themselves. I remember only one person arguing otherwise here...but I can't remember who.

Hello JonC,

I think we can all understand why people like to single out verse12.it is a positive verse....

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
here we have....
!]those who receive Him

2]being given power to be sons of God, ie, adoption

3]they get to believe on His name....I just do not like the disconnect from verse 13 which I think explains it.

 

[Iconoclast]

InTheLight,

Hello ITL

Strawman.

Not really

Name someone on BB (or anyone, anywhere) that believes they can receive Jesus solely as an act of their own will.

Anyone who says that faith precedes regeneration is making that very claim. I believe I have seen that claim on BB for several years now.As if they have the power, the will, and ability to make their own salvation happen....then they "allow" the cross to be put to their account.

Name someone on BB (or anyone, anywhere) that believes they were born again by their own will and not by the power of God.

I believe it will be the same suspects who do this...two former moderators posted this many times.

 

[Iconoclast]

"MartyF,

Hello MartyF

Why didn't you post this to the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate forum? Did you make a mistake?

It was not a mistake whatsoever Marty...The question the OP raises has more to do with honest hermeneutics than a doctrinal system.to start with.
Also I think anyone who goes on an internet message board needs to put their big boy pants on and deal with whatever topic arises.

Are you writing to all Christians?

I am....

Or simply those who aren't Calvinists, Reformed Baptist, or whatever you call yourself?

marty...I cannot remember anyone who is a reformed person of any name who would leave off verse 13...do not think I have ever seen that happen

The final question is more multiple choice. You can just choose the one or more that pertains to you. If you have another reason you can share it instead. It involves why you started this thread.

No need to over think this Marty...I did not want to derail the other thread where i read verse 12 severed from verse 13,

A. Did you start writing this because theological discussion is a hobby you enjoy? I'm not against that, but it doesn't seem like you're writing this as a hobbyist, but I could be wrong.

At the end of the day, I go online and interact. My job has me in public places where i have several chances to speak with persons about the gospel in between my reading and online activity. I like to offer help to those who want to learn.

B. Did you write this to encourage others and build them up? How is this thread helping your audience feel better or help alleviate their pain and suffering?

I believe truth matters and sometimes people look online for such help.On a forum such as this most who get the help are not those who post, but rather those who read what is posted.

C. Did you write this to promote action? What do you want your audience to do? Not think - do.

Those who read as always should be as the Bereans...Acts17
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
;

D. Is your audience doing some iniquity which you want to correct with this thread? What sin is your audience doing which you feel this thread is correcting?

Some of my followers seek to oppose whatever I post. Some even like to censor what I post.
Each of us will answer to God for what we do, and why....I like to live by this verse; Acts24
16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

E. Are you trying to promote one form of Christian behavior? For example, many pastors commonly spend one sermon out of the year to promote tithing.

No...I just keep it simple.if i can help thats what I try and do. like I said some do not want help, and there are some i cannot help. I just need to be faithful.

F. Are you trying to stamp out false beliefs?[/QUOTE]

I do believe false ideas, and false teachings are to be exposed, and correction offered. That being said a person cannot come to truth unless God allows them to.

 

[Iconoclast]

HankD,

Hank I used voice to text before, and it left off your name...sorry about that.

OK God willingly chose to give them the new birth.

Agreed...before the world was

Why? There must be a reason.

The only reason is God's good pleasure...think of how he addressed Israel,Deut7:
6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

What did He see in you or I that made Him choose you or I seeing that we were dead at the time in trespass and sin.

Hank...when God saw me he saw a fatality at Genesis 2,and 3....he saw Ezkiels infant 16;
4 And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.

5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.

6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

Those He chose according to the counsel of His own will.

yes....I just do not see the aspect of co-operation,as I know I was in complete rebellion to God before he had mercy on me.

Yes it is most wonderful that He did and I will thank Him through eternity and will love to thank Him throughout eternity.

Agreed Hank

I just think we need to be careful not to discourage and even hinder those who are being called.
Jesus had that concern as well.

I understand your concern, however if truth is revealed it will not discourage anyone if rightly taught or preached.

 

[HankD]

HankD,


I understand your concern, however if truth is revealed it will not discourage anyone if rightly taught or preached.

Not ultimately but take a look at Luke 11:52. Rightly taught true, but that can elude even the most learned among us.

Not an accusation against you at all but discouragement is a real possibility.

 

[Iconoclast]

Not ultimately but take a look at Luke 11:52. Rightly taught true, but that can elude even the most learned among us.

Not an accusation against you at all but discouragement is a real possibility.

Hank,
I agree that truth wrongly handled can be a hindrance as well as truth withheld. This can happen in several ways.
I remember seeing members trying to greet visitors and making very awkward comments that repelled them. The comments were more personal in nature than doctrinal.
My objection is when truth clearly written like Eph 1 are obscured or hidden, rather than simply read or proclaimed.

 

[Iconoclast]

Anyone who ever sees their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will not be according to anything they did... Not according to what particular denomination they belong to and there are way too many to count but according to Gods Mercy, Love, and Grace... Gods WILL... Gods WAY... And according to Gods PURPOSE!

Btw... Welcome back Iconoclast... Brother Glen

Christ Alone!... Tread The Winepress Alone... And Saved His Own!

Yes...a God given spiritual seeing of God in His glory is going to lead directly to an Isa6 moment internally. Thanks for the welcome back...

 

[HankD]

Hank,
I agree that truth wrongly handled can be a hindrance as well as truth withheld. This can happen in several ways.
I remember seeing members trying to greet visitors and making very awkward comments that repelled them. The comments were more personal in nature than doctrinal.
My objection is when truth clearly written like Eph 1 are obscured or hidden, rather than simply read or proclaimed.

In my evangelism I appeal to their will, their choice, their decision as did Jesus and Paul.

See how Jesus dealt with Martha

John 11
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Look how Paul appealed to Felix and Agrippa.

The scripture is clear Milk, Growth, Meat.

1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Later when they grow teeth they will be able to chew, and digest the meat.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

I realize this is a Christian debate venue, but I feel that sometimes we end up choking the babes.

 

[MB]

jn1:10-13
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is a wonderful thing when a sinner receives or "welcomes The Lord Jesus Christ"
Many are eager to offer up Jn1:12 with an explanation that is directly contradicted by verse 13 saying the sinner in and of himself accepts or receives Jesus all by himself by an act of his will as if verse 13 does not exist...BUT IT DOES
When asked about it the person goes silent and moves along to another passage and does not comment on how the verses are connected. Chapter and verse divisions were added later, and these verses are clearly linked. Could you offer your explanation on why you do not connect these two verses as scripture does?

This passage is not about the Gentiles. Verse 11 also does exist
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
This is about the rejection of Christ by the Jews alone. They exercised there right to refuse Him. Something Calvinist refuse to believe is possible, because of irresistible Grace and supposed sovereignty of God. God is higher than sovereignty He is almighty.
MB

 

[JonShaff]

In my evangelism I appeal to their will, their choice, their decision as did Jesus and Paul.

See how Jesus dealt with Martha

John 11
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Look how Paul appealed to Felix and Agrippa.

The scripture is clear Milk, Growth, Meat.

1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Later when they grow teeth they will be able to chew, and digest the meat.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

I realize this is a Christian debate venue, but I feel that sometimes we end up choking the babes.

Excellent Post, brother.