John 10:15 and the Atonement

Then the question begging to be asked is "how does God harden hearts?" The answer is exactly the same as for the question of how does God soften hearts. With Softening meaning: "coming to faith in God" While hardening meaning resistance to the softening of the heart. God softens hearts through the hearing of his word for faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. With the Pharaoh, his entire "slave labor force" was to be let go while there was yet much work to be done. Egypt was no where close to "complete" as far as construction was concerned. A president or prime minister or King or Pharaoh would be stupid to lose his labor engine with yet so much to be accomplished. If you were put in the Pharaoh's position you would not let them go either. You would not pay heed to a "foreign God", which is what the Jews had in Egypt. That is what it means to have a hardened heart. You become too filled with, "the cares of the world" We all can become too filled with the cares of the world to respond to the call to righteousness.

 

Wes,

I believe that is a question that we can ask - and would ask after we understand what Paul is saying in Romans 9.

But there is a problem with how you think God hardens men. It is not Scriptural. I do not believe there is ANY Scripture that addresses HOW God hardens men - only that He does it (in Romans 9, Genesis etc), making sure their destination (Romans 9 and in Isaiah) and in a way that men are still responsible for their actions (we see that in places where God is judging people for what they have done). The Bible does tell us why it is that He does it (for His glory, Romans 9 and other places) but not how He does it.

Because He lives,
Nathan

 

Some think it is the HOly Spirit, some think it is the church. Personally, I lean toward the church view.

No, because the Bible says otherwise. Mankind can do good things, but they are not righteous in God's eyes.

They did it only after regeneration, not before.

Eph 1 and 2 Thess 2 say that election took place from before the foundation of hte world. That, by necessity, is before birth.

We do: Eph 1 and 2 Thess 3

The evidence is in Scripture.

I wouldn't either. I would base it on what God said. All I have done is repeat that.

This is certainly true, but you have faith for salvation because you were chosen by God.

 

I have never said that at all. Calvinism is the one true doctrine, but salvation does not depend on you believing it. Salvation depends on trusting Christ alone for salvation.

I note the "IMHO." Your opinion is the problem. Your opinion and my opinion doesn't matter at all. What God has revealed is what matters, and that is the problem with your little scenario. YOu do not accept what God has revealed. God says that man is without excuse. God says that man's sin has rendered him unable ot respond to him. Why do you insist that God didn't know what he was talking about? I don't understand that at all.

Calvinists do not claim to have everything figured out. Nor do they base their system on logic. They are perfectly willing to let logical problems stand because they are revealed in God's word. You are not.

To say, as you and others here have, that Calvinist don't believe in the love of God is utter foolishness. It simply isn't true. WE believe very strongly in the love of God. It is that love by which he rescued your from yourself. Were God not loving, he would never have elected people to be saved. He would have let them all go they way they want to go.

You spaek of hte love of God, but as I showed previously, in your belief God creates people to send them to hell. He knows from before their birth that they will reject him, and because he knows that is what they will do, they have no other option. But yet he creates them anyway. For all your complaining about God being unloving, you have the same kind of view.

In the end, this discussion will only be settled when your side turns to the authority of SCritpure, rather than the authority of your own system. Accept what God said. When he said he chose you to salvation from the beginning, what else is there to say?

 

Nathan,

From my vantage point these three words indicate that this whole thesis of God is in the hypothetical; He is saying He could damn some and release some to believe but He does not do this. This idea is in force because in 2:11 God indicates that He ‘ . . is no respecter of persons.’

Davidson, Stibbs andKevan suggest in “The New Bible Commentary, “Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, p. 956:

‘Moreover, ‘love’ and ‘hate’ are not the grounds of election as we understand these subjective feelings. God is not arbitrary in His choice and cannot be charged with irrational favoritism. The emotional terms indicate rather a national function and destiny. Judah, not Edom,was for progressive revelation in history. As you know Esau lived in the land of Edom. This meaning may be supported by the rendering ‘Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I loved less’ (cf. Genesis XXIX. 30-33; Mat. X. 37; Lk. XIV.26; Jn. XII. 25).

Calvinist has overstated the word from the Greek for ‘hate’ as pointed out by other commentators like in the above paragraph. Building a quasi-theology of God loving some and eternally despising others, with vengeance, is going ‘over the top’ by way a exegetical meaning.

The Triune God’s glory will remain immaculate no matter who goes into destruction or who arrives safely in Heaven.

By a progressive revelation in history, we mean that from the lineage of Esau there is not one Tribe of Israel, and yet there are from the children of Jacob's family. You will readily recall that Jesus was born not from the heritage of Esau, but Jacob and down through the heritage of Judah.

'And one of the elders (in Heaven said to the Apostle John) Weep not; behold, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah of the root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.' [Revelation 5:5]

 

Hi Pastor Larry;

I have already submitted to the authority of scripture. Just because you believe that Calvinism is the only one true doctrine, places it right up there with every other cult in the world. No one has a perfect theology, and Calvinism least of all. You have to be able to prove your theology is absolute in order to rightfully make such a claim. And you haven't, nor has any other Calvinist.
Not one point of the so called tulip is even found in scripture. It's support is a result of taking scriptures out of context. Any one can make the Bible say all most anything with such techniques.
Total depravity . is supported by Romans 3:10-18. But when you read the whole chapter you find that this is not what God says but is used as irony to show what the sinner says in his heart. That same sinner says there is no God.

Unconditional election ; While I believe it is unconditional that's why all are elect. The Calvinist doesn't believe that it is unconditional, but believes it is individual thus making it very conditional. And they believe it is individual with out scriptural support.

Limited Atonement ; Another false doctrine. Christ died for the whole world and the Bible clearly says so. Calvinist would like to Change the meaning of those words in Jn 3:16. But kosmos / world has only one meaning. That menaing is "ORDER"

Irresistible Grace ; Calvinist believe we have no choice even though they have no scripture that says we have no choice. We do have scriptures that say we do. and when presented Calvinist make the false claims that the verses do not say what they clearly say. They Ignore the clear teaching of scripture that says Christ came unto His own and they received Him not. Then through the idea of that individual election, which is false anyway use it to support there dictating idea of God

Perseverance of the Saints ;
It is we who persevere we are not persevered by God. It doesn't say anywhere in scripture that we are. I know Paul says He is convinced but then turns right around and tells us to fear because we can be broken out of the tree we are grafted in to just like the original branches were broken out of that tree so that we could be grafted in.
Calvinism is nothing more that the doctrines of men.
You have never proven one point of the tulip even though you claim you have.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Clearly you haven't, and you prove it below by changing what Rom 3 says.

What I believe has nothing to do with it. As I have said many times, the test of truth is the Scripture. Does Scripture teach that God sovereignly and without reason elects individuals to salvation? Absolutely. Therefore, Calvinism is what the Bible teaches. There are differences among Calvinists as to how to interpret individuals verses, just as there are among arminians. But the basic teaching of Calvinism is the teaching of hte word of God.

This is a clear denial of Scripture. There is no irony in Rom 3. God quotes the OT as proof that both Jew and non-Jew are sinners and that sin has affected every area of their being. To say that Rom 3 is not what God says is plainly wrong, and to be honest, is to deny the basic doctrine of revelation.

Again, just completely. Not all are elect. Unconditional election means "without merit." It is not conditioned on the individual. And election ot salvation is individual. There is no other option. Again, you have clearly denied the teaching of Scripture.

This demonstrates that you don't understand limited atonement (after all that is said about it here, you have no excuse for this). Calvinists believe that the merit of Christ's death is without limit. They, because of the teachign of Scripture, believe that the intent of Christ's death was to save sinners, and therefore is limited to saved people. All people with the exception of universalists limit the atonement. And universalism is not even Christian.

Again, you simply do not understand what you are talking about. Calvinists do not say that man has no choice. Calvinist, along with the Bible, teach that man's choice will always be against God until God regenerates him. Then, man's free choice will be to turn to God in repentance. There is no dictation. There is the loving effectual call.

Again, just a plain denial of Scripture. THe Bible teaches that God who started the work of salvation will complete it (Phil 1:6; 1 Thess 5:24; John 10; John 3:16; etc). Paul does not tell believers to fear. He tells Jews not to trust in their ethnicity as a basis for salvation.

No, we have. You have simply rejected the teaching of Scripture about these matters. You have decided that you can take the words of God and make them fit your own conceptions. These ideas you put forth are old and have been soundly refuted many times. Most of them are based on your misunderstanding of what you are arguing against.

Mike, I don't mean to be offensive, but I want to ask why you treat the word of God in teh manner in which you do (saying God really didn't say what he said, such as in Rom 3 above) and then invoke the blessing of God? That seems very out of place to me. God is not pleased when his word is rejected, and I am not talking about the debate between Calvinism and arminianism. I can fully accept that people honestly disagree about that issue. I can accept that godly men see it differently than I do. But when you say that the word of God is not really what God said, you have violated the clear teaching of Scripture about inspiration, and you then invoke the blessing of God on that. That makes no sense. I would urge you to refrain from using such a phrase.

 

Some think it is the HOly Spirit, some think it is the church. Personally, I lean toward the church view.</font>[/QUOTE]Got news for you, You don't have church without the Holy Spirit! NOPE! Ya just got a social club! The point is with the restrainer present in the world, Total Depravity of man cannot exist!

Can you cite the scripture that clearly states when Noah was regenerated? What about Abraham? According to scriptures when was he regenerated? What about Isaac? For that matter, when was Jacob regenerated? It had to be in the womb, because, Jacob God loved and Esau God hated. OR, was Jacob regenerated after he wrestled with God?

Once again your statements say that God is not consistent in his dealings with man. Which says that God does not have a standard by which he measures man, and that is not consistent with the Gospel!

That is an opinion that I do not agree with!

Again, that is an opinion which I believe is without merit.

Quote the scripture in its context that states exactly what you are saying. There's room, this is electronic media and the whole bible only takes up a few megabytes of electronic space, the average 8.5 X 11" printed page is only 4000 bytes.

No sir, all you have done is pick and choose that which you want to believe, and repeated that. There is a much broader picture than you are willing to include in your beliefs.

I have faith unto salvation because God's word has persuaded me that it is true, and that for me to be saved I must have faith in God! God gave me his word, I believe his word, therefore I am marked (sanctified) by my FAITH to be saved by God! NO! I was not born predestined to salvation! Meaning, that I was already sanctified to be saved! I had to come to faith in God in the same way that ALL mankind must come and that is THROUGH FAITH! Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God! Even God's elect must come the same route, THROUGH FAITH! ONLY!

 

Hi Pastor Larry;

Pastor this whole quote above is very offensive to me. You intended to be that way or you wouldn't have posted it.
Romans 3:10-18 is Paul quoting what David said a fool says in His heart. Many have tried to disprove this but they haven't yet.
This is what David wrote.

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

This isn't true was not Paul doing Good by preaching the gospel? Wasn't our lord good? I mean at the time this was written He had alread layed down His life for the whole world Your view destroys the righteousness of Christ.

Now you can claim that God said this, but you're wrong. You see there is a God, and God cannot lie.
I do not appreciate you falsely accusing me of misusing God's word.
Mike

[ December 06, 2004, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: ILUVLIGHT ]

 

Which is totally irrelevant. The Spirit was in the world before the church. And the Holy Spirit works apart from the church in some cases.

Only if you don't know what total depravity is. Total depravity does not mean that man is as bad as he could be, or that all men are equally bad. It means that every part of man's being is affected by sin. (These basic definitions are too often missed, leading to false statements. Please learn what you are talking about).

The Bible gives no clear statements on when anyone was regenerated. That is a straw man. The fact is that apart from regeneration you have no explanation for how these men were righteous before God.

NOt at all. I said nothing that indicates any inconsistency ont eh part of God. And I must remind you that God doesn't answer to your ideas of consistency anyway.

I realize that, but you are wrong. You are misinterpreting the Scriptures in order to support your position. Read those texts plainly and you see what they say. You are reading them with the predisposition to support your own thinking.

I have quoted and defended it many times. There is no need to do it again.

No, I changed my beliefs about 10 years ago through the reading of Scripture. At that time, I didn't know much about Calvin or ARminius (still don't). I hadn't read any theology books one way or the other on it. I read the Scripture and changed what I believe because of what God said.

But were it not for the working of God in your life, you would not have even understood how Scripture applied to you.

Your testimony of faith proves otherwise.

You are speaking like a real Calvinist. That is exactly what we believe because that is what Scripture teaches. No one is saved apart from faith. All man must come to God in faith for salvation.

[ December 06, 2004, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

If you read what I said, then you know that I did not intend it to be offensive. I intended it to be very direct, but not offensive. Your statement was unconscionable and heretical. It should not have been made. I hope you merely did not understand the ramifications of what you were saying.

Yes, and David was writing under the inspiration of God. Therefore, the words of David are the words of God.

Because he was regenerated.

Because he was God.

The Bible says that All Scripture is God-breathed, that men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. That means that what the authors of Scripture wrote was the word of God. Yes, God said it and he cannot lie.

The context of Romans 3 is Paul's demonstration that the Jews are not righteous because they are Jews. They, like the Gentiles, are all under sin (v. 9) for it is written, There is none righteous, no not one. That is the word of God about the state of men. The fool said there is no God. God said the fool was unbelievably corrupt, with no good.

Perhaps you misunderstand the idea of good. God is not saying that unsaved man never does any civic good. Common grace enables unsaved man to do much civic good, to be altruistic, etc. God's point is that unsaved man never does anything that is pleasing to God. Even the plowing of the wicked (a good thing) is sin. The unsaved man is not seeking after God. He is wicked to his core.

I did no such thing. When you say that the Word of God is not the word of God, you have contradicted a fundamental doctrine of Scripture. If you understand what you are doing, that means you are not orthodox. As I say, I hope you merely have not understood the theology that you contradicted and have not understood the ramifications of what you said. This is a serious matter.

 

Pastor Larry;
4. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. The board has an edit button enabled. We encourage you to use it and edit your own words. Moderators and Administrators will be visibly proactive in dealing with potentially offensive situations. Posts of a violent or threatening nature, either implicitly or explicitly, will be deleted, and the poster's membership revoked. We encourage personal problems with other members be resolved privately via email or personal messaging.

 

Pastor Larry;

I did read what you said and it was still offensive and a personal attack.
How many times have I read a post of yours chastising other for doing the same thing you are doing.

These words were still ultimately the words of the fool that was in His heart. God said so in Verse 1 of Psalms 14 but you want to take it and twist it to be condesending towards me. In that this is a personal attack.

Before Christ there was no indwelling of the Holy Spirit yet there were many righteous men. there is no regeneration in the oldtestament. men had to change them selves.

He was God but He was still a man and was not regenerated. this makes Him someone. And your explanation of the text wrong.

This still doesn't excuse your misrepersentation of what I said.

Not so there is nothing in the text that even hints at what you claim. The whole thing is what is said by a fool in His heart.

You're going to explain it to me

That is not what I said because you took it out of context. This shows where your heart is.
You personally attacked me. That's why I reminded you of the rules

 

Well Larry, scriptures certainly do tell us that the men mentioned had faith in God, Faith that God saw as righteousness! It does not say that God put that righteousness in them but that he "found" favor with Noah and that Abraham's faith "was counted to him" as righteousness. There is no mention of "regeneration" regarding any of the Old Testament saints, That is a new testament phenomena! Your posted scriptures prove that! Why do you suppose the Old Testament authors did not know about "REGENERATION"? Because it ain't part of the program! Those O.T. guys knew all about atonement, repentance, and FAITH, but none of them knew about regeneration! Yet, Jesus's atonement for sin, applies to all sins during the Old Testament, and well as all sins to today. Faith in the New Testament is no different than faith in the Old Testament, and neither is repentance from sinning or evil lifestyle. The only thing that is different is that Sins are no longer a factor in salvation. FAITH is still the requirement and man still comes to faith the same way, by hearing God!

 

MIke, I will not keep going around with you about this. I did not post a personal attack and it was not intended to be offensive. You appeared to promote a contradiction of a fundamental doctrine of Scripture, whether you intended to or not. That is not good. I pointed it out to you and asked you to refrain.

Read the passage Mike:

Psalm 14:1-3 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. 2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Notice what the fool said: There is no God. That is where the words of the fool end. Everything after that is the word of God about the fool. These are the words of God.

It seems that you may be trying to say that vv. 1-3 are the words of the fool. They clearly are not. If I misunderstood your statement above, then forgive me. You were unclear about what you said. And you seemed very clearly to be saying that part of Scripture was not the word of God.

But the context of Psalm 14 coupled with Paul's use in Rom 3 indicates that those are the words of God about sinners.

Nope, wrong. There was both regeneration and seom kind of indwelling in the OT. Apart from that there is no way to explain righteousness. The proof that regeneration is an OT truth is to simply read John 3. Christ rebuked Nicodemus because he was a teacher of the OT who should have known about regeneration but did not.

No, Christ was sinless because he was God. All men born in the likeness of Adam are sinners. And that is clearly the point of Romans 3.

YOu worded it poorly and did not clarify it until this post. I apologize if I misread your words to understand something you did not mean.

Iknow what the rules are and I did not violate them in teh least. I pointed out a problem with your statement about God's word. That was not a personal attack. If you would like to discuss the matter further, you may PM me.

[ December 06, 2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

REad John 3. Christ rebuked Nicodemus for not knowing about regeneration from the OT. THat is clear evidence that he should have known about regeneration from the OT. IT is clearly taught in many passages, such as the New covenant passages where he talks about giving a new heart.

These questions you guys are bringing up are easily answered from Scripture. Which leads again to the point that this is about the authority of Scripture. There is unfortunately such a theological dearth in our pulpits today that people do not know the word of God. They buy these philosophies and ideas of man because they do not know God's word. As CHrist told the Pharisees, You err becuase you do not know the Scriptures.

 

No Larry, We Know the scriptures, not the "localized dialects" of religion!

 

Pastor Larry;

Of course you don't want to mention that those quotation marks in which appears on both ends of "there is no God" are not found in any original manuscripts but are the fabrication of the poor translation you have used to support your doctrine. Poor translation, poor defense.
Is this the best you can do to support your view?, Because it really makes your view look as false as the translation you used to support it.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Why would I mention that? It is common knowledge. Who doesn't know that?

Actually, it is the right translation. Your understanding makes no sense. Why the fool who says there is no God continue by saying that no one does good and no one seeks God? That makes no sense. Then you consider the fact that Paul quotes in Rom 3. Look at the context. Paul says that all men are sinners and no one seeks God. Then, as support for that truth ("for it is written"), he quotes an OT passage. You would have us believe that Paul quoted a passage that does not support him. That, again, doesn't make sense. When Paul, writing under the inspiration of hte Spirit, quotes David to make point about all men being sinners, it most certainly is not irony in the least. That is clear from the text.

Is that the best I can do? What else do we need? We can speak with clarity with the authority of God's word. That is the best we need. You are continually looking for something else. I don't need anything else. We should be content to take God's word for it.

 

Then how did you not know that regeneration was taught in the OT? You make the same mistake Nicodemus did and Christ said he should have known about regeneration from the OT.