John 16:7-11

[Paleouss]

Greetings to all in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am looking for others to give their thoughts (Calvinist and Arminian types all) on the translation of John 16:7-11. Particularly the section I will outline below.

(John 16:7-11 NKJV) 7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 "of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 "of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Here is the frame for my inquiry. Jesus says that He must go away so the "Helper" will come. Then in verse 8 it says, "He will convict the world of sin", and "righteousness", and "judgement". When the verses say "He", starting in verse 8, it appears to refer to "the Helper".

Here is the question... In what sense does the Spirit "convict the world of sin"? And of course "righteousness" and "judgement" also. In other words, what role is the Helper playing here that He "convicts the world of sin"?

Peace to you brothers

 

[37818]

It is my understanding the disagreement is over the I in the TULIP.
Irresistable versus resistable grace.

Acts 7:51, Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

 

[Van]

Greetings to all in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am looking for others to give their thoughts (Calvinist and Arminian types all) on the translation of John 16:7-11. Particularly the section I will outline below.

(John 16:7-11 NKJV) 7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 "of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 "of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Here is the frame for my inquiry. Jesus says that He must go away so the "Helper" will come. Then in verse 8 it says, "He will convict the world of sin", and "righteousness", and "judgement". When the verses say "He", starting in verse 8, it appears to refer to "the Helper".

Here is the question... In what sense does the Spirit "convict the world of sin"? And of course "righteousness" and "judgement" also. In other words, what role is the Helper playing here that He "convicts the world of sin"?

Peace to you brothers

Great question!!

I agree the answer is not clearly stated, we have have "experts" with differing views.

Our indwelt "Helper" certainly convicts ourselves, bringing to mind where we missed the mark. He works within us to will and to work for His good pleasure.

And as we and other indwelt believers witness for Christ as ambassadors, through us we convict some of those who hear and heed our message, thus the Holy Spirit convicts the world (members of humanity) of sin. And of course, another mode of witness is the word of God, which is the work product of the Holy Spirit through the inspired writings.

I think "of righteousness" refers to God's presence within the believing witnesses taking over Christ's ministry of reconciliation, whereby the lost become the righteousness of God in Him.

Ditto for judgement, not only of the lost condemned already for unbelief, but also for believers who may earn rewards for effective ministry.

 

[kyredneck]

Greetings to all in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am looking for others to give their thoughts (Calvinist and Arminian types all) on the translation of John 16:7-11. Particularly the section I will outline below.



Here is the frame for my inquiry. Jesus says that He must go away so the "Helper" will come. Then in verse 8 it says, "He will convict the world of sin", and "righteousness", and "judgement". When the verses say "He", starting in verse 8, it appears to refer to "the Helper".

Here is the question... In what sense does the Spirit "convict the world of sin"? And of course "righteousness" and "judgement" also. In other words, what role is the Helper playing here that He "convicts the world of sin"?

Peace to you brothers

This is "the world" that the Spirit convicted THROUGH THE MOUTHS OF HIS WITNESSES:

John Chapter 18

20​	Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing.

This is the Spirit convicting the world through the mouths of His witnesses:

Acts 2:
…. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth… ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

Acts 3:
…Peter… answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel… his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him… ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life… whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:12-15

Acts 4:
…Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

Acts 5:
… they set them before the council…. ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us…. Peter and the apostles answered and said… The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree… we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit Acts 5:27,28,29,30,32

Acts 6 & 7:
…there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

Acts 10:
…we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree…. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10: 39-42

Acts 13:
…Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken…they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:16,27-31

 

[kyredneck]

Pink on Jn 16:8:

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" (John 16:8). There is hardly a sentence in this Gospel which has been more generally misunderstood than the one just quoted. With rare exceptions this verse is understood to refer to the benign activities of the Holy Spirit among those who hear the Gospel. It is supposed to define His work in the conscience prior to conversion. It is regarded as a description of His gracious operations in bringing the sinner to see his need of a Savior. So firmly has this idea taken root in the minds even of the Lord’s people, it is difficult to induce them to study this verse for themselves—study it in the light of what precedes, study it in the light of the amplification which follows, study the terms employed, comparing their usage in other passages. If this be done carefully and dispassionately, we feel confident that many will discover how untenable is the popular view of it.

It should be very evident that something must be wrong if this verse be interpreted so as to clash with Christ’s explicit statement in John 14:17, "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive." What then is the character of the "reproof" that is here spoken of? Is it an evangelical conviction wrought in the heart, or is it something that is altogether external? Almost all the older commentators regarded it as the former. We, with an increasing number of later writers, believe it is the latter. One of the leading lexicons of the twentieth century gives as the meaning of elencho, "to bring in guilty; to put to shame by proving one to be wrong; to convict with a view to condemnation and judgment, but not necessarily to convince; to bring in guilty without any confession or feeling of guilt by the guilty one."...........It is rather refutation by proofs, convicting by unanswerable arguments as an advocate, that is meant.".........."Here the Holy Spirit is not spoken of as dealing with individuals when He regenerates them and they believe, but as bringing conviction to the world because of sin. The Holy Ghost being here, convicts the world, i.e., what is outside where He is. Were there faith, He would be in their midst: but the world doth not believe. Hence Christ is, as everywhere in John, the standard for judging the condition of men" (Mr. W. Kelly).

 

[Tea]

In what sense does the Spirit "convict the world of sin"?

A person may be convicted of their sin; however, that doesn't necessarily mean that they will ever want to repent of their sin.

And of course "righteousness" and "judgement" also.

Those in the world whom God has spared will be declared righteous, and those who have been passed over will face judgement.

 

[Reformed]

Greetings to all in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am looking for others to give their thoughts (Calvinist and Arminian types all) on the translation of John 16:7-11. Particularly the section I will outline below.



Here is the frame for my inquiry. Jesus says that He must go away so the "Helper" will come. Then in verse 8 it says, "He will convict the world of sin", and "righteousness", and "judgement". When the verses say "He", starting in verse 8, it appears to refer to "the Helper".

Here is the question... In what sense does the Spirit "convict the world of sin"? And of course "righteousness" and "judgement" also. In other words, what role is the Helper playing here that He "convicts the world of sin"?

Peace to you brothers

The answer you are looking for is right there in the passage. In what sense does the Spirt convict the world of sin? The Greek word for "convict" is ἐλέγχω (elenchō). One meaning of the word is "to expose". The Holy Spirit exposes sin. This is a necessary component in the order of salvation, for without exposing sin there is no repentance. The Spirit's role in righteousness is the "good news" part of the gospel. Yes! While you may be a wretched, vile sinner - forgiveness of sins and all the benefits of Christ are offered to you. The judgment part? The eventual destruction and end of sin is so certain that John states that the ruler of this world has already been judged. Since we know that all those who reject Christ will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15), the Spirit's role in exposing sin also reveals God's terrible wrath on all those wo reject the Son.

 

[Reformed]

Greetings to all in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am looking for others to give their thoughts (Calvinist and Arminian types all) on the translation of John 16:7-11. Particularly the section I will outline below.



Here is the frame for my inquiry. Jesus says that He must go away so the "Helper" will come. Then in verse 8 it says, "He will convict the world of sin", and "righteousness", and "judgement". When the verses say "He", starting in verse 8, it appears to refer to "the Helper".

Here is the question... In what sense does the Spirit "convict the world of sin"? And of course "righteousness" and "judgement" also. In other words, what role is the Helper playing here that He "convicts the world of sin"?

Peace to you brothers

One more thing. In his work "The Precious Things of God", Octavius Winslow said the following about the glory of Christ:

"Oh, do not study God in the jeweled heavens - in the sublimity of the mountain - in the beauty of the valley - in the grandeur of the ocean - in the murmurs of the stream - in the music of the winds. God made all this, but all this is not God. Study Him in the cross of Jesus! Look at Him through this wondrous telescope, and although, as through a glass darkly, you behold His glory - the Godhead in awful eclipse, the Sun of His Deity setting in blood - yet that rude and crimsoned cross more fully reveals the mind of God, and more perfectly unveils the heart of God, and more fully exhibits the glory of God, than the combined power of ten thousand worlds like this, even though sin had never marred, and the curse had never blighted it. Study God in Christ, and Christ on the cross! Oh, the marvels that meet in it - the glory that gathers round it - the streams of blessing that flow from it - the deep refreshing shadow it casts, in the happy experience of all who look to Jesus and live - who look to Jesus and love - who look to Jesus an embrace that blessed "hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before the world began." A worthy structure this of a foundation so divine!

Without the Spirt exposing sin, revealing righteousness, and the perils of despising God's gift - the totality of the gospel would be rendered moot. In short - the Spirit's power to proclaim good news to men is rooted in the glory of Christ's cross!

 

[John of Japan]

Greetings to all in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am looking for others to give their thoughts (Calvinist and Arminian types all) on the translation of John 16:7-11. Particularly the section I will outline below.



Here is the frame for my inquiry. Jesus says that He must go away so the "Helper" will come. Then in verse 8 it says, "He will convict the world of sin", and "righteousness", and "judgement". When the verses say "He", starting in verse 8, it appears to refer to "the Helper".

Here is the question... In what sense does the Spirit "convict the world of sin"? And of course "righteousness" and "judgement" also. In other words, what role is the Helper playing here that He "convicts the world of sin"?

Peace to you brothers

The rendering of "convict" is correct. The Greek is the future of ἐλέγχω, which Timothy Friberg's (et al) lexicon defines thusly: "1) in the NT, generally as showing someone that he has done something wrong and summoning him to repent bring to light, expose (JN 3.20); convince, convict ( JA 2.9); (2) in the sense of setting right reprove, correct (1T 5.20); in an intensified sense rebuke, discipline, punish (HE 12.5).

The passage is not ambiguous. The OP does not present a translation issue, but a theological one. Those who interpret κόσμος (accusative, "world") as only the elect are simply sidestepping the meaning as they do in John 3:16.

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings to all. Thank you for your informative interpretations. All are very useful.
@John of Japan @37818 @Van @kyredneck @Tea @Reformed

It would seem that the two general theological paths that are taken from this verse are that of "world" meaning elect and "world" meaning all mankind (or the Jew first and also the Gentile). It seem to be relatively consistent that both paths claim an interpretation of 'bringing to light, exposing' theme. The theological disagreement being for whom this 'bringing to light' by the Spirit affects.

Question for those applying the verse to 'all mankind'
It seems a reasonable question, and a simple logical progression, to ask if the "Helper" is to come and "convict the world of sin", in what manner is this verse suggesting it will be done? If this verse, or its context, suggests the manner at all.

One of the posters has already suggested a possible 'how' or 'in what manner', that being Van. Van wrote, "And as we and other indwelt believers witness for Christ as ambassadors, through us we convict some of those who hear and heed our message, thus the Holy Spirit convicts the world (members of humanity) of sin". Van would appear to hold that the Helper, in my words, intimately engages with the elect but indirectly engages with the non-elect.

Again, for the 'all mankind' theological path...is there any sense in which this verse suggests an intimate engagement that 'brings to light, exposes' sin within all men, everywhere? Not just the indirect engagement for some that Van suggests. Of course Universalism is excluded here.

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure

 

[kyredneck]

John Chapter 14

16​	And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
17​	even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[kyredneck]

John Chapter 14

30​	I will no more speak much with you, for the prince of the world cometh: and he hath nothing in me;

Who came? How did this 'prince of the world' take form?

John Chapter 18

3​	Judas then, having received the band of soldiers, and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.

 

[kyredneck]

John Chapter 14

30​	I will no more speak much with you, for the prince of the world cometh: and he hath nothing in me;

Who came? How did this 'prince of the world' take form?

John Chapter 18

3​	Judas then, having received the band of soldiers, and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.

In the same vein as:

14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

How did 'the serpent' take form?

2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat:
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows` houses, even while for a pretence ye make long prayers: therefore ye shall receive greater condemnation.
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

3 And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst,
13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest witness of thyself; thy witness is not true.
22 The Jews therefore said, Will he kill himself, that he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come?
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3

 

[Dave G]

Here is the frame for my inquiry. Jesus says that He must go away so the "Helper" will come. Then in verse 8 it says, "He will convict the world of sin", and "righteousness", and "judgement". When the verses say "He", starting in verse 8, it appears to refer to "the Helper".

Here is the question... In what sense does the Spirit "convict the world of sin"? And of course "righteousness" and "judgement" also. In other words, what role is the Helper playing here that He "convicts the world of sin"?

Here it is in the AV:

" Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." ( John 16:7-11 ).


Notice that the word used by the translators is not "convict" ( in the more modern sense ), but the word "reprove", in the more formal and older English sense. "Convict", the way we use it nowadays, means "to cause a person to face the reality of ", or " to bring something disapproved of, to someone's attention". Granted, it's pretty much the same meaning...

But to me, the less-used "reprove" or "rebuke" does a far better job of describing what the Holy Spirit, outwardly, does with the truth of Jesus Christ:

" to tell somebody that you do not approve of something that they have done", which, to me, is exactly what it means.

 

[Dave G]

Question for those applying the verse to 'all mankind'
It seems a reasonable question, and a simple logical progression, to ask if the "Helper" is to come and "convict the world of sin", in what manner is this verse suggesting it will be done?

Outwardly, through the preaching of the Gospel and of God's words.

Again, for the 'all mankind' theological path...is there any sense in which this verse suggests an intimate engagement that 'brings to light, exposes' sin within all men, everywhere?

In my opinion? No.

I see no inward "conviction" or "enlightenment" ( to bring about a sobering realization that a person has offended the Lord by their behavior, and that realization then leading them to a genuine, heart-felt desire to repent ) ever intended for those not written in the Book of Life.