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John 17.20-23
- Thread starter Jude
- Start date
Once there was one church, one communion, one confession, one "fold and one shepherd."
..............which was known as the universal (catholic) church; having no name and then
time lapsed and history recorded that Ignatius took the term describing the universal
church, added a capital 'C' and its followers yet today proclaim superiority when in fact
they have adulterated the Word of God and lay claim to something that is not theirs;
for they (Catholics) came after the fact. The keys to the kingdom were already in
operation for 70 years before Catholicism erupted and those keys were freeing
men from their eternal darkness through salvation that was granted on the basis
of their faith in the risen savior and the working of the Holy Spirit that was offered
to "whosoever" ..........long before (gasp) Catholicism evolved.
Compare Catholicism to rotting apples. The rot cannot continue if the source is
taken from it. Thus being so; Catholicism will continue to defend Catholicism
just so Catholicism can survive. The eye is taken off the apple's (Gospel's) well
being and the promulgation of 'rot' (Catholicism) becomes the motivation.
Oh well....it was a good comparison anyhow !!
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Wputnam,
If you think I deride the Catholic church, wait until you hear me talk about that Mormon bunch, and the Jehovah's Witnesses for their false doctines.
By the way, Thanks for the list, is there a place where the writings can be download or at least read in electronic form? I'm not a rich person and cannot afford to purchase personal copies of each to read.
A good question. I suppose the addage that absolute power corrupts absolutely is appropriate. The Catholic church has not been forthcoming with all the "truth" it claims to possess, which seems to put it in the position of being a closed society. I'm not concerned with the business end of the church, but I am concerned with the lack of disclosure of God's truth that the Church seems to be concealing. For example, the keys to the kingdom that is claims it possesses. (oh wait, I see that Carson posted something about the Keys) What specifically are they? There are other examples that the church uses the "casting pearls before swine" as a means to keep from being "exposed" to criticism of any kind. Not to mention the other aspects of Catholic tradition and practise that have no foundation in the Holy Scriptures such as assigning to Mary, the mother of Jesus, attributes that she in no way possesses.
Because Peter himself said that believers are a kingdom of priests and therefore have the priestly authority that you claim for the Catholic church. I do not deny the Catholic church proper authority, but do demand that the church rightly extend that authority to all believers as Peter did.
If you think I deride the Catholic church, wait until you hear me talk about that Mormon bunch, and the Jehovah's Witnesses for their false doctines.
By the way, Thanks for the list, is there a place where the writings can be download or at least read in electronic form? I'm not a rich person and cannot afford to purchase personal copies of each to read.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Yelsew:
Do you know if Gutenberg Bible had 66 books or 73 books? Just curious.
Armando </font>[/QUOTE]I have never seen a Gutenberg bible but I believe it contains the apocrypha. So that would make it contain more than 66 books the total count depending on which books identified as the apocrypha are included.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
"C"? does that stand for Carson?
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Well then, Did Peter give the church authority to raise Mary the mother of Jesus to the status of 1st Leutenant to Jesus, the Christ? Capable of hearing and answering the prayers of the multitudes of faithful Catholics that pray to her?
Did Peter give the church authority to teach that we mere living mortals, stuck in this natural life, can pray to the departed saints for remediation of what ails us?
Is the Church concealing the words of Peter that grant that authority?
If not, who did? and by what means?
Did Peter give the church authority to teach that we mere living mortals, stuck in this natural life, can pray to the departed saints for remediation of what ails us?
Is the Church concealing the words of Peter that grant that authority?
If not, who did? and by what means?
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Did Peter give the church authority to raise Mary the mother of Jesus to the status of 1st Leutenant to Jesus, the Christ?
No, actually, that was Jesus himself. Mary is the Queen Mother (Heb. Gebirah) of the Kingdom, as shown in Revelation 12 with its heavy OT background.
See http://carson.boerne.com/catholic/kingdom_ecclesiology.html
Did Peter give the church authority to teach that we mere living mortals, stuck in this natural life, can pray to the departed saints for remediation of what ails us?
No, John the Seer already taught this truth in his Apocalypsis.
"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev 5:8).
What are the saints in heaven doing with the prayers of the saints on earth?
No, actually, that was Jesus himself. Mary is the Queen Mother (Heb. Gebirah) of the Kingdom, as shown in Revelation 12 with its heavy OT background.
See http://carson.boerne.com/catholic/kingdom_ecclesiology.html
Did Peter give the church authority to teach that we mere living mortals, stuck in this natural life, can pray to the departed saints for remediation of what ails us?
No, John the Seer already taught this truth in his Apocalypsis.
"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev 5:8).
What are the saints in heaven doing with the prayers of the saints on earth?
Yelsew responded, where I last said:
How is it that you accept as "God breathed" in whatever Protestant version of the New Testament you have without question, yet at the same time, look upon the very Church who presented that very same New Testament in the form you have in great suspicion and derision?
[/QUOTE]A good question. I suppose the addage that absolute power corrupts absolutely is appropriate. The Catholic church has not been forthcoming with all the "truth" it claims to possess, which seems to put it in the position of being a closed society.[/quote]
Yelsew, what corruption?
Does the Church have individual men, including popes, who have sinned? Yep, they are sinners just like you and I.
Or has the Church become corrept in doctrine and beliefs? If you think so, then please document your statement so that we can have a serious look at them.
And up to now, you have not satisfactorily answered my question - the bible you hold so dearly, a product of the very Church you dismiss!
I previously said:
And again, if the Catholic Church had the authority to do this, why do you then deny her the authority I speak of?
Also, we are all all a part of the "priesthood of believers," Yelsew, which includes as a subset, the Sacradotal Priesthood as manifested in the original 12 apostles, later to be supplimented by Mathias and also Paul, who then trained Timothy ordained to be a bishop! Cool huh!
As for what is the Sacradotal Priesthood is,I give you the following web site:
http://www.catholic.com/library/bishop_priest_and_deacon.asp
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
How is it that you accept as "God breathed" in whatever Protestant version of the New Testament you have without question, yet at the same time, look upon the very Church who presented that very same New Testament in the form you have in great suspicion and derision?
[/QUOTE]A good question. I suppose the addage that absolute power corrupts absolutely is appropriate. The Catholic church has not been forthcoming with all the "truth" it claims to possess, which seems to put it in the position of being a closed society.[/quote]
Yelsew, what corruption?
Does the Church have individual men, including popes, who have sinned? Yep, they are sinners just like you and I.
Or has the Church become corrept in doctrine and beliefs? If you think so, then please document your statement so that we can have a serious look at them.
And up to now, you have not satisfactorily answered my question - the bible you hold so dearly, a product of the very Church you dismiss!
Carson explained perfectly, but I will do so in my own words: The "keys of the kingdom" is simply a metaphor for 'authority to act for the kingdom (heaven)" or, takes "keys" alone, it means simply authority. And that is exactly how the metaphor is treated in Isaiah 22:22, which I invite you to read and see what I mean.
Yelsew, you have completely sidestepped my quandry over your acceptance of scripture without question, yet reject the very authority that compiled it for you! By all rights, you should dismiss the bible (or at least the New Testament) as some "suspicious Catholic publication" that bears watching with a jaundiced eye!
I previously said:
And again, if the Catholic Church had the authority to do this, why do you then deny her the authority I speak of?
Who were the "believers" that Peter extended his hand to? If not members of the only church around at the time, but they soon become so, right? And what was that church, Yelsew?
Also, we are all all a part of the "priesthood of believers," Yelsew, which includes as a subset, the Sacradotal Priesthood as manifested in the original 12 apostles, later to be supplimented by Mathias and also Paul, who then trained Timothy ordained to be a bishop! Cool huh!
As for what is the Sacradotal Priesthood is,I give you the following web site:
http://www.catholic.com/library/bishop_priest_and_deacon.asp
Yelsew, the Mormons and the JW's are "Johnny come latelies" as were also the Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, etc., who can trace their history only so far as their break-away from another sect or from the original breakaway from Holy Church.
I wish I could help you on that one, as I would love to read them as well! And btw, I "stole" that list from someone else who compiled it, not remembering who he is (was). For the most part, I have seem some of those titles, including reading fragments from some of them. Perhaps one of the Seminaries, Catholic or otherwise, may have them on-line in a web site...
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
Singer piped-up and said, commenting on what I said:
Once there was one church, one communion, one confession, one "fold and one shepherd."
Now, if you want to add a heresy or two, and there were numerious ones that popped up, then do so, but if you think they were the "true church," give my your accounting on them and let's see.
Singer, you have absolutely no idea what it is you are talking about, sir!
God love you!
PAX
Bill+†+
Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
Once there was one church, one communion, one confession, one "fold and one shepherd."
Singer, please show me a distinct line between the doctrines and faith practices of the Church before Ignatius planted that famous "Catholic" onto the title of the Church and afterwards. Also, please show me the "true church" before and after, in parallel with that very same church.
Now, if you want to add a heresy or two, and there were numerious ones that popped up, then do so, but if you think they were the "true church," give my your accounting on them and let's see.
Such charges come straight out of the likes of Jack Chick, without a scintillia of of proof or documentation in scholarship and truth.
Singer, you have absolutely no idea what it is you are talking about, sir!
And with the help of the Holy Spirit, may this inadequate servant some how, some way, get the scales to fall from your eyes that you may indeed, see the truth!
God love you!
PAX
Bill+†+
Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
C.S. Murphy
New Member
Please discuss this issue in it's context as I suggested. Jesus was pleased that God had revealed the truth to Peter. The worship of Peter is something invented by men not God. It concerns me not how many writers you can quote that agree with your view. Men are fallable and God set His church on a firm foundation, not peter but the rock of ages Jesus Christ.
Murph
C.S. Murphy
New Member
quote:
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Originally posted by WPutnam:
I wonder how it is that the sudden availability of scriptures makes good scripture scholars anyway. I certainly am not one, but I do the best I can under the Magisterium of Holy Church.
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No need to wonder any further, the answer you seek is the Lord. It is amazing what God can teach a person once they are allowed to read the Bible for themselves. It is strange that you would dare render such a responce when confronted with the wickedness of the roman catholic church concerning their hoarding of the scriptures.You had nothing to do with it but your attempt at diversion was wasted.
Murph
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by WPutnam:
I wonder how it is that the sudden availability of scriptures makes good scripture scholars anyway. I certainly am not one, but I do the best I can under the Magisterium of Holy Church.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No need to wonder any further, the answer you seek is the Lord. It is amazing what God can teach a person once they are allowed to read the Bible for themselves. It is strange that you would dare render such a responce when confronted with the wickedness of the roman catholic church concerning their hoarding of the scriptures.You had nothing to do with it but your attempt at diversion was wasted.
Murph
First of all I seek the Lord when I seek the very church He founded!
That's simple enough, I think!
Let's see now, as the scriptures was carefully preserved, by hand copying over the centuries, but faithful monks in monastaries, preserved for the final capabilities of the printing press, you then accuse the Catholic Church of "hoarding of the scriptures"? I seem to recall that the very first bible ever printed was a Catholic bible, printed by a Catholic who invented the process!
As a Fundamentalist in the church of my youth, there does not seem to have been a Sunday go by that the Catholic Church was lambasted from the pulpit!
"Oh, the evils of that Church," the charge would go! Enought of it that at about age 17, I wondered if such charges were true. I looked into it.
What I found was certainly skeleton's in the closet, evil men and sinful priests, bishops and popes, but you know what, sir? for ever one evil or sinful person, I found thousands of good and holy men and women who brought glory to God and to His Church!
I became a Catholic with my eyes wide open in 1973!
http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/p/wputnam3/My%20Story.htm
And while you are at my web site, please feel free to explore around. You might be interested in a response I did for a Jack Chick tract.
Knowing that the Inquisitions are probably on your mind (among many things from the likes of Jack Chick) I offer this to you for a good read:
http://catholicleague.org/research/inquisition.html
And if you back up in that web site, which is The Catholic League site, you will see other papers under "research papers" that refute other myths and out and out lies, such as the recent slander made against Pope Pius XII and the Jews killed in the Holocaust.
Finally, we have sinners in the Catholic Church and I am one of them. But through the grace of God and His Sacraments in that Church, we will achieve salvation in the end!
God bless you this day,
PAX
Bill+†+
Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)
According to the Word of God, the men who wrote by inspiration were the first publishers of the Bible. Romans 1:1,I Cor. 14:34, Rev. 1:1,11 and a host of other passages. These same individuals were responsible for delivery of the letters to the various locations of the church. Col. 4:16, I Thes. 5:27. These individuals also confirmed the authenticity of the word. Mark 16: 17-20, II Cor. 12:12, John 20:30,31.
Over the course of time, many men have translated and copied the inspired volume. In fact, I have a new testament volume that has 27 different translations. The translators of this volume include: Methodist,Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian theologians and many more. However, the first translators and publishers of the Word were Christians. Acts 11:26;26:28,Col.1;1,2.
Over the course of time, many men have translated and copied the inspired volume. In fact, I have a new testament volume that has 27 different translations. The translators of this volume include: Methodist,Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian theologians and many more. However, the first translators and publishers of the Word were Christians. Acts 11:26;26:28,Col.1;1,2.
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
It concerns me not how many writers you can quote that agree with your view.
It doesn't?
Then we don't have anything to talk about.
I learned a long time ago to speak only when I have a listener, and it seems to me like you don't have an ear to lend.
It doesn't?
Then we don't have anything to talk about.
I learned a long time ago to speak only when I have a listener, and it seems to me like you don't have an ear to lend.
The men who "wrote by inspiration" were the apostles and their companions who also were witnesses of Jesus Christ and His preaching word.
They eventually died (the end of the apostolic era) yet the work of "publishing" continued, and by that word, the continuous copying that went on to preserve the written word.
Yet the authenticity of the (written) word seems to have been disputed, which are the reasons for the church councils that convened to settle the matter. Paul's Romans, Hebrews and John's revelation was disputed and rejected by some of the local churches, I understand, but other books not contained in the New Testament today (and I gave a long list of them somewhere in this conference) were considered inspired. The Didache is the outstanding example.
So far as I know, the first translation of any note was Jeromes Latin Vulgate which is the translation Gutenburg used in his famous printing.
And I could not agree more that the "first translators and publishers of the (written) Word were Christians."
I simply cannot imagine non-Christians being engaged in this sort of work!
Now, note that the content of your New Testament (other then possibly a different translation) is for all intents and purposes, the same content as the New Testament that was decreed by those early church councils in the 3rd. century.
And I still find it amazng to me that the Catholic Church is so rejected on the one hand, yet the doctrine of Sola Scriptura floats around the New Testament that was preserved by the very samw rejected Church whose authority came before the New Testament was even written, and declared so by that very same church!
Oh, what thin ice your Sola Scriptura advocates stand on!
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Almighty and eternal God, you gather
the scattered sheep
and watch over those
you have gathered.
Look kindly on all who follow Jesus,
your Son.
You have marked them
with the seal of one baptism,
now make them one
in the fullness of faith
and unite them in the bond of love.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.
Amen.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Do you mean that I should throw away what I believe to be truth because I disagree with the publisher that collected and compiled that truth into one binder? If everyone did that, there would be no Catholic church! In fact there would be no books at all!
The Catholic church did not write the books of the bible! It is those books of the bible that contain the truth, and not the organization that complied them. Without the work of the Holy Spirit in ensuring that God's Word is preserved for all time, I believe there would be no Catholic Church as it is today. God's Word would still be available to all mankind through other channels.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Where does the scripture get that specific? You are reading into the scripture what you want to believe.
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
You are reading into the scripture what you want to believe.
That's your opinion.
The Scripture says that the elders (who are saints) in heaven are offering the prayers of the saints before the throne of the Lamb.
It seems pretty simple to me. Now, of course, if you outrightly reject asking for the intercession fo those saints in heaven before the throne of Jesus for you, then you will have difficulties with this passage of Scripture, and it will always mean something different to you.
I don't ask for you to repent and believe. I ask for you to listen and in the least, consider.
That's your opinion.
The Scripture says that the elders (who are saints) in heaven are offering the prayers of the saints before the throne of the Lamb.
It seems pretty simple to me. Now, of course, if you outrightly reject asking for the intercession fo those saints in heaven before the throne of Jesus for you, then you will have difficulties with this passage of Scripture, and it will always mean something different to you.
I don't ask for you to repent and believe. I ask for you to listen and in the least, consider.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Please provide the Scripture Reference that makes the conclusion that the 24 Elders are saints.