John 17 on definite atonement

[Herald]

John 17:9-10 9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.”

In the Johannian narrative the word ‘world’ (kosmos) is used seventy-nine times. In chapter 17 it is used eighteen times; that is 23% of the times ‘world’ appears in the gospel.

In John 17 Jesus offers an intercessory prayer to the Father on behalf of His disciples; the twelve minus Judas. He sets up a contrast between His disciples and the world (v. 9). He references the disciples twice in the same verse. In the beginning of verse 9 Jesus references them by saying, “on their behalf.” In the latter part of the verse He references them again when saying, “those whom You have given Me.” The eleven were given to the Son by the Father. By itself this passage is not a convincing enough to prove definite atonement; but there is a greater proof in John 17.

John 17:20 20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;”

Why doesn’t Jesus pray for the world? Why does He limit His prayer for those whom the Father has given Him? If He was just praying for the eleven (v. 9) that would be one thing; but in verse 20 He makes it clear He is praying for “those who believe in Me through their word.” The conclusion is clear – Jesus is praying only for the elect.

Matthew Henry writes:

I. Whom he did not pray for (v. 9): I pray not for the world. Note, There is a world of people that Jesus Christ did not pray for. It is not meant of the world of mankind general (he prays for that here, v. 21, That the world may believe that thou hast sent me); nor is it meant of the Gentiles, in distinction from the Jews; but the world is here opposed to the elect, who are given to Christ out of the world. Take the world for a heap of unwinnowed corn in the floor, and God loves it, Christ prays for it, and dies for it, for a blessing is in it; but, the Lord perfectly knowing those that are his, he eyes particularly those that were given him out of the world, extracts them; and then take the world for the remaining heap of rejected, worthless chaff, and Christ neither prays for it, nor dies for it, but abandons it, and the wind drives it away. These are called the world, because they are governed by the spirit of this world, and have their portion in it; for these Christ does not pray; not but that there are some things which he intercedes with God for on their behalf, as the dresser for the reprieve of the barren tree; but he does not pray for them in this prayer, that have not part nor lot in the blessings here prayed for. He does not say, I pray against the world, as Elias made intercession against Israel; but, I pray not for them, I pass them by, and leave them to themselves; they are not written in the Lamb's book of life, and therefore not in the breast-plate of the great high-priest. And miserable is the condition of such, as it was of those whom the prophet was forbidden to pray for, and more so, Jer. vii. 16. We that know not who are chosen, and who are passed by, must pray for all men, 1 Tim. ii. 1, 4. While there is life, there is hope, and room for prayer. See 1 Sam. xii. 23.

 

[zrs6v4]

I connect much of what Jesus said here with chapter 6 of John namely verses 35-45. Same language is used and really seems to impact the truth of God's electing process.

 

[OldRegular]

I connect much of what Jesus said here with chapter 6 of John namely verses 35-45. Same language is used and really seems to impact the truth of God's electing process.

There are many who primarily look to the Apostle Paul for New Testament record of the teaching of election, However careful study shows this same doctrine taught by the Apostle John starting with John 1:12, 13. We also find it in the record of Acts and Peters letters.

 

[convicted1]

Well, Jesus came to His own(elect Jews), and His own received Him not.

He wept over Jerusalem, because He was willing to gather them like a hen does her brood, but they would not.

In the OT, the sacrificial lamb was an atonement for all of Israel, but only those who chose to believe what the Prophets told them, obtained the benefits of that lamb's atoning blood.

The scapegoat which Aaron prayed over, confessing all of Israel's sins upon that scapegoat, and then was led out into the wilderness by the hand of a fit man, took all of Israel's sins with it.

Christ died for the ungodly.

Christ tasted death for evey man.

Christ took away the sin of the world.

God so loved the world......

 

[OldRegular]

Well, Jesus came to His own(elect Jews), and His own received Him not.

He wept over Jerusalem, because He was willing to gather them like a hen does her brood, but they would not.

In the OT, the sacrificial lamb was an atonement for all of Israel, but only those who chose to believe what the Prophets told them, obtained the benefits of that lamb's atoning blood.

The scapegoat which Aaron prayed over, confessing all of Israel's sins upon that scapegoat, and then was led out into the wilderness by the hand of a fit man, took all of Israel's sins with it.

Christ died for the ungodly.

Christ tasted death for evey man.

Christ took away the sin of the world.

God so loved the world......

John 6:39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

What did the Father give?

John 3:3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Ephesians 2:4-9
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved;]
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[convicted1]

John 6:39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

What did the Father give?

John 3:3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Ephesians 2:4-9
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved;]
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Amen. I agree with all of these verses. Please address the verses I posted. Christ died for the ungodly. Since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, Jesus did indeed die for everyone w/o exception.

 

[Jerome]

And as John Calvin himself noted in his Commentary on John 17:9,

"Christ himself afterwards prayed indiscriminately for all, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do," Luke 23:34."

 

[convicted1]

And as John Calvin himself noted in his Commentary on John 17:9,

"Christ himself afterwards prayed indiscriminately for all, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do," Luke 23:34."

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Christ died for the ungodly.

Hello Willis...this verse is found in Romans 5...agreed:thumbs: lets look at it.

opps...looks like there is more here...it does not speak of all the ungodly as you suggest...which ungodly persons are in view...

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Paul is addressing ungodly persons whom God has saved,justified...he says WE...that is the ones justified

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Notice WE again...it is the same justified persons again...wherein WE stand... Willis.....this does not look like all ungodly people everywhere!


3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

WE again...the same persons.....unsaved do not-glory in tribulations


4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Now the WE is said to be US...who have the Love of God shed abroad in OUR hearts..by the Holy Ghost which is given unto US
The Holy Ghost is not given to all ungodly persons ..but to saved sinners at new Birth.


6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Here is our verse...There is the WE again..the same persons as in the other verses...but yet...it looks as if you only quoted half the verse....



7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Hopefully ...you can see which ungodly persons are in view.....
Just like the OP says ...Jesus did not pray for the world when he was praying about the covenant children!..next

Christ tasted death for evey man.

Ok...lets try the same thing here...lets see if we can discover more about the passage...as man is in italics..lets see who is in view

9and him who was made some little less than messengers we see -- Jesus -- because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death.

10For it was becoming to Him, because of whom [are] the all things, and through whom [are] the all things, many sons to glory bringing, the author of their salvation through sufferings to make perfect,

11for both he who is sanctifying and those sanctified [are] all of one, for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12saying, `I will declare Thy name to my brethren, in the midst of an assembly I will sing praise to Thee;' and again, `I will be trusting on Him;'

13and again, `Behold I and the children that God did give to me.'

14Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --

15and might deliver those, whoever, with fear of death, throughout all their life, were subjects of bondage,

16for, doubtless, of messengers it doth not lay hold, but of seed of Abraham it layeth hold,
17wherefore it did behove him in all things to be made like to the brethren, that he might become a kind and stedfast chief-priest in the things with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people,

so we have for everyone [lets see who is described]
many sons [not all]
the author of their salvation [this everyone are saved]
those sanctified [sounds like election]
all of one [all of one source..God The father]
them brethren [brethren ..are saved persons]
I and the children God gave me [Election again....like Jn 6:37-44]
the children [those in view]
the seed of Abraham [the elect...notice he does not say...the seed of adam!]

Christ took away the sin of the world.


yes...not the Jews only.....whatever sin is taken away worldwide is taken away by the Lord Jesus.....whatever sin remains..sinners will pay for in hell.



God so loved the world......

Yes....that everyone believing may have life!

 

[Iconoclast]

John 17:9-10 9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.”

In the Johannian narrative the word ‘world’ (kosmos) is used seventy-nine times. In chapter 17 it is used eighteen times; that is 23% of the times ‘world’ appears in the gospel.

In John 17 Jesus offers an intercessory prayer to the Father on behalf of His disciples; the twelve minus Judas. He sets up a contrast between His disciples and the world (v. 9). He references the disciples twice in the same verse. In the beginning of verse 9 Jesus references them by saying, “on their behalf.” In the latter part of the verse He references them again when saying, “those whom You have given Me.” The eleven were given to the Son by the Father. By itself this passage is not a convincing enough to prove definite atonement; but there is a greater proof in John 17.

John 17:20 20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;”

Why doesn’t Jesus pray for the world? Why does He limit His prayer for those whom the Father has given Him? If He was just praying for the eleven (v. 9) that would be one thing; but in verse 20 He makes it clear He is praying for “those who believe in Me through their word.” The conclusion is clear – Jesus is praying only for the elect.

Matthew Henry writes:

This is a helpful post and one of the greatest passages of scripture. So much grace and promise.....The covenant of redemption being explained clearly and meant to be a great comfort to the people of God:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

[/FONT]

And as John Calvin himself noted in his Commentary on John 17:9,

"Christ himself afterwards prayed indiscriminately for all, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do," Luke 23:34."

Jerome...nice quote.......but looks like you missed the main point of Calvins teaching...lets look together;

9. I pray for them. Hitherto Christ has brought forward what might procure for the disciples favor with the Father. He now forms the prayer itself, in which he shows that he asks nothing but what is agreeable to the will of the Father, because he pleads with the Father in behalf of those only whom the Father himself willingly loves.

Had you read this part Jerome...just forgot to quote it?



He openly declares that he does not pray for the world, because he has no solicitude but about his own flock, which he received from the hand of the Father. But this might be thought to be absurd; for no better rule of prayer can be found than to follow Christ as our Guide and Teacher. Now, we are commanded to pray for all, (1 Timothy 2:8) and Christ himself afterwards prayed indiscriminately for all,
Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do,
(Luke 23:34.)

I reply, the prayers which we offer for all are still limited to the elect of God.
looks as if you missed this part,lets see how he views this??/

We ought to pray that this man, and that man, and every man, may be saved, and thus include the whole human race, because we cannot yet distinguish the elect from the reprobate; and yet, while we desire the coming of the kingdom of God, we likewise pray that God may destroy his enemies.

This looks like this helps explain the part you quoted....no need to thank me Jerome...I just figured you must have been in a hurry:thumbs:



There is only this difference between the two cases, that we pray for the salvation of all whom we know to have been created after the image of God, and who have the same nature with ourselves
and we leave to the judgment of God those whom he knows to be reprobate. But in the prayer which is here related there was some special reason, which ought not to be produced as an example; for Christ does not now pray from the mere impulse of faith and of love towards men, but, entering into the heavenly sanctuary, he places before his eyes the secret judgments of the Father, which are concealed from us, so long as we walk by faith.


Besides, we learn from these words, that God chooses out of the world those whom he thinks fit to choose to be heirs of life, and that this distinction is not made according to the merit of men, but depends on his mere good-pleasure.
OIC.....

For those who think that the cause of election is in men must begin with faith. Now, Christ expressly declares that they who are given to him belong to the Father; and it is certain that they are given so as to believe, and that faith flows from this act of giving. If the origin of faith is this act of giving, and if election comes before it in order and time, what remains but that we acknowledge that those whom God wishes to be saved out of the world are elected by free grace? Now since Christ prays for the elect only, it is necessary for us to believe the doctrine of election, if we wish that he should plead with the Father for our salvation.



A grievous injury, therefore, is inflicted on believers by those persons who endeavor to blot out the knowledgeof election from the hearts of believers, because they deprive them of the pleading and intercession of the Son of God.


Good point...Agreed???



116116 “D’autant qu’ils les privent de la recommandation et intercession du Fils de Dieu.” These words serve also to expose the stupidity of those who, under the pretence of election, give themselves up to the indolence, whereas it ought rather to arouse us to earnestness in prayer, as Christ teaches us by his example

 

[David Lamb]

And as John Calvin himself noted in his Commentary on John 17:9,

"Christ himself afterwards prayed indiscriminately for all, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do," Luke 23:34."

Jerome, please correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be saying something like: "Even Calvin, no less, in his commentary suggests that atonement is not definite." However, you have ripped the words you quoted right out of their context. Calvin's commentary on John 17.9 starts (my emphasis):

Hitherto Christ has brought forward what might procure for the disciples favor with the Father. He now forms the prayer itself, in which he shows that he asks nothing but what is agreeable to the will of the Father, because he pleads with the Father in behalf of those only whom the Father himself willingly loves. He openly declares that he does not pray for the world, because he has no solicitude but about his own flock, which he received from the hand of the Father.

​

 

[Jerome]

Jerome, please correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be saying something like. . .

Once again, your "it must mean something else" spiel.:BangHead:

I meant to write what I wrote: Calvin's admission regarding what another Scripture teaches.

missed the main point of Calvins teaching

Oh horrors!

The OP already covered your party line "teaching" on this passage.


In a commentary, one's "teachings" have to reckon with ever-present Scriptures.

The Bible tempers one's theoretical schemes.

As Spurgeon noted:

in his commentary I have often found him cutting his own institutes to pieces, not attempting to give a passage a Calvinistic meaning

 

[David Lamb]

Once again, your "it must mean something else" spiel.:BangHead:

I meant to write what I wrote: Calvin's admission regarding what another Scripture teaches.

Please stop banging your head against that brick wall, Jerome - you'll end up in A&E otherwise. (That's "ER" to you ).

I know we differ on this matter, but I would use a word like "understanding" or "explaination" instead of "admission" here.

I hope you didn't take offence at my post - that was not intentional at all.

 

[Iconoclast]

Once again, your "it must mean something else" spiel.:BangHead:

I meant to write what I wrote: Calvin's admission regarding what another Scripture teaches.




Oh horrors!

The OP already covered your party line "teaching" on this passage.


In a commentary, one's "teachings" have to reckon with ever-present Scriptures.

The Bible tempers one's theoretical schemes.

As Spurgeon noted:

Jerome
Just because we exposed your out of context quote{not the first timewe have seen this} is no reason to get bent out of shape.
No wonder those pastors saw the need to reform that church you were in...they needed to bring biblical truth there......is that when you departed?:thumbs:

 

[Jerome]

You indeed have falsely charged me previously, as you are doing now.

 

[Iconoclast]

You indeed have falsely charged me previously, as you are doing now.

David saw the same thing...you pulled that quote out of context..using it to mis-represent the whole thought offered in the commentary.....Some of us actually look to see the context of the quote when possible.
You do this quite often...You pull Spurgeon quotes out and several have called you on it. usually Rpon..I think...I do not keep track of this as meticulously as you do...when you remind someone of what they have previouly posted......you do not deny this..do you?
if I showed you the complete quote from calvin and posted it...why do you say I falsely accused you?

Hey Jerome...since I have your attention....why do you not offer scriptural correction when you post, instead of posting your little gothcha type posts.
You do not seem to like it when someone calls you on it. So why do you do that....look at your post archives....tell me I am wrong.

 

[Jerome]

I know we differ on this matter, but I would use a word like "understanding" or "explaination" instead of "admission" here.

I hope you didn't take offence at my post - that was not intentional at all.

Thanks.:wavey:

But

—Calvin admits

really pales in comparison to

Spurgeon's:

—in Calvin's Commentaries he often cuts his own Institutes to pieces


Doesn't it?

How would you restate that?

 

[psalms109:31]

You can pray for the world all you want to, but what will it do if His own people live like they do?

 

[David Lamb]

Thanks.:wavey:

But

—Calvin admits

really pales in comparison to

Spurgeon's:

—in Calvin's Commentaries he often cuts his own Institutes to pieces


Doesn't it?

How would you restate that?

I wouldn't restate it. I would put it into its context in Spurgeon's Sermon "Characteristics of Faith", preached on 27th May 1860:

We must now hurry on to the third and best stage of faith. The servants meet the nobleman—his son is healed. He arrives at home, clasps his child and sees him perfectly restored. Add now, says the narrative—"Himself believed and his whole house.' And yet you will have noticed that in the fiftieth verse, it says that he believed. "The man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him." Now some expositors have been greatly puzzled; for they did not know when this man did believe. Good Calvin says, and his remarks are always weighty, and always excellent—(I do not hesitate to say that Calvin is the grandest expositor that ever yet thought to make plain the Word of God; in his commentary I have often found him cutting his own institutes to pieces, not attempting to give a passage a Calvinistic meaning, but always trying to interpret God's Word as he finds it)—Calvin says this man had in the first place, only a faith, which relied for one thing upon Christ. He believed the word Christ had spoken. Afterwards he had a faith which took Christ into his soul, to become his disciple, and trust him as the Messiah.
​