John 3:16 and Salvation

JJ Your theology is dangerous. I believe I have told you that once before. I am encouraging you to recheck your theology. Outside of that we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

Please show me how my theology is dangerous? It's really easy to make wide, sweeping generalizations, but show me specificly how my theology is dangerous?

That you have never done.

The verses we are speaking of are cut and dry, black and white. Either they are or they are not. If they are speaking of eternal salvation as your say they are then there is no way in the world you can hold to the security of the believer, becuase that's just not supported in that passage, nor anywhere in the Gospel of John if you believe his gospel message is the message of salvation by grace through faith.

If you do believe in the security of the believer, which is clearly taught in the Bible then you can't square the Gospel of John to agree with you unless you twist and destroy Scripture.

 

For that matter, show a passage that explicitly states that Nicodemus was unsaved.

Neither is stated.

But, in John 3:3, Jesus tells him how to see the Kingdom: Be born from above (saved).

In John 3:5, Jesus tells him how to enter the Kingdom, which involves works. This is to be a partaker of or to go in and possess like the Children of Israel did Canaan.

Moses got to see the land flowing with milk and honey (a type of the Kingdom), but those who were obedient got to enter in and possess it. As long as you remember that they were in the promised land while they were still in Egypt, but this was followed by baptism (the Red Sea), and then wandering for 40 years, you will have a picture of being saved, but having to work for the better part of the inheritance.

Unless you think that spiritual salvation is by works, then you cannot confuse this passage in John 3 with spiritual salvation.

 

Im not understanding how you reach the conclusion that eternal security has to be part of this passage if it is speaking of salvation.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

This passage gives clear indication that nicodemus lacked the spiritual mind set therefore was not saved.

As for John 3:5 it has nothing to do with works. Being born of the "water" does not refer to baptism if that is wha tyou are thinking HOG. If that were the case the greek word here would have been baptizmo. And it is not.

Your theology is dangerous JJ because you deny the teaching of the Gospel. You claim to believe in salvation by grace but when it is taught in scripture you deny it is there. That kind of distortion of scripture is dangerous. JJ I do not like to disagree with you this way but I am concerned for you. I am grieved it is necessary.

 

I was saved before understanding sin. When I saw who Jesus was, after being drawn to him by feeling God's love, I realized he was the Savior and I had been going away from God. I realized all my spirituality was false. I turned my life over to him in that instant - that is repenting. Repentance means turning away from something toward something else. It is part of salvation. It does not mean that someone has to be sorry for their sins before they can trust Jesus - if you tell people that, you are adding a step in there that is not put there by God. Jesus said "believe on me;" that is what is necessary. When you believe in Jesus as Savior, that is repenting.

It is true that some people are convicted of sins and then trust Christ, but this is not universal and it's not a requirement. Many people today, like myself in former times, do not believe in sin. But God can still save them!

I have talked to others with the same experience I had, especially those with New Age pasts like mine. God often uses his love to draw people to Christ.

 

Rev. Mitchell that is flat out an untrue statement. I do not deny the teaching of salvation by grace through faith. If anything I have done nothing but try to bring clarity to a simple message that has been severly distorted over the years.

I have never once denied that anyone is saved by anything other than grace through faith apart from works. It is a belief in the works of Jesus Christ alone in His substitutionary death and shed blood on the cross of Calvary.

How can you say that I deny the teaching of the gospel?

Just becuase I can show by Scripture that eternal salvation is not the context of a particular passage, why would you say that I deny the gospel?

Rev. Mitchell you well know that we have to compare Scripture with Scripture. When you compare Scripture with Sripture you will find that John 3:16 and all of the passages where John uses believe can't be speaking of eternal salvation because they are present tense verbs.

That means as long as you are believing something is true, but one you stop believing it becomes untrue. So if you hold that the Gospel of John is speaking of eternal salvation then you can not hold to the doctrine of security, because the text doesn't allow it.

If John 3:16 is in regard to eternal salvation then when someone stops believing then they will be unsaved, because the "believes" in John 3:16 is a present tense verb. That means if you are believing right now and if you believe tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day, and the next day then you will have aionios life. But if on the 10th day you decide not to believe anymore then you lose your aionios life.

Therefore there is a contradiction that you have placed on Scripture where no contradictions can exist.

The Bible says eternal salvation is a one-time event in a person's life, not a continual process, like John says.

 

Having a spiritual mindset is something totally different than being spiritually dead. Again Jesus said Nicodemus should have understood what Jesus was talking about, therefore indicating that Nicodemus was in fact spiritually alive, but spiritually blinded.

Nicodemus was spiritually alive (saved), but he just didn't understand the spiritual message, not because he wasn't capable (Jesus said not only was he capable, but He rebukes him for not understanding), but for some other reason.

 

...because 100% of them still have a sin nature.

 

When you are trusting in Jesus without an acknowledgement of sin just what are you trusting in him for?

If you are going to trust in something you must trust in his shed blood on the cross for your sins. Anything else leaves you dead.

Romans 10:9-10
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [/FONT]10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.If you believe that God reaised him from the dead then you must believe he was burried. If you believe he was buried you must believe he died. If you believe he died then you must believe he was on the cross. Why was he on the cross?

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us
Without a recognition of sin, Christs finished work on the cross, and a heart to live for God, there is no salvation. That is the gospel. and there isnt room for anything else.

 

Amen! Death and shed blood is the requirement that God placed on the payment for sin. You are absolutely right. I agree 100%.

Now you are getting away from eternal salvation. Confession is not part of the deal. Believe/Faith are the only requirements (Ephesians 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31, Romans 4).

Exactly. If you don't think you are a sinner and in need of a Savior then you can't be saved.

That's the simple message of salvation by grace through faith. So again I'm not denying the gospel message.

 

Of course it is important! God's love for us is the beginning of our salvation, which dwells in Jesus Christ and our faith in Christ is the means by which we obtain it. However, Jesus was not saying He died for the world, but for those who believe in Him (the elect).

 

JJ you need to go back and consider all that I said. The gospel message you are denying is in John 3, I John 2, Colossians, Ephesians. And all of the New Testament.

 

JJ you need to go abck and read all that I posted to gain the context of what I said. the gospel message you deny is the gospel in John 3, 1 john 2, Colossians, ephesians etc.

As far as eternal security is concerned no true Christian would turn their back on Christ. If you do you were never saved. It is not possible tolose your salvation. And I never implied that. Im not sure how you pulled that out of our discussion. It is so far from anything we have been talking about.

 

I read exactly what you posted and I agreed with everything that you said regarding the simple Gospel message of grace through faith based on the works of Jesus Christ alone as the substitution for the payment of the individual's sin. That is the simple gospel message, and I do not deny it, but wholeheartedly believe it.

What I do deny is the Rev. Mitchell spin placed on the word gospel. Everytime the word gospel is used it is not automatically speaking of eternal salvation.

Let me show you once again how context proves this to be true.

In the Gospel of John everytime (I believe) he uses the word believe it is in the present tense. As a side not I think this is the case in I John as well. That means it must be a present and continual action on the part of th person.

Guess what...that is in direct violation of Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31 which says that faith/believe are one-time events. That means at the very moment I believed in the simple message of salvation by grace through faith, in the subtitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God as the payment for my sin I was definitely (not maybe) saved. It was a completed, done deal. At that matter is settle and the matter is never to be brought up again.

What you are saying is that in order to be saved I must initially believe and then continue to believe until the day that I die and that if I continue to believe until the very moment I breathe my last breath then and only then am I actually saved.

That's not what the Bible says at all. And you can't get around that contradiction in the way you are presenting matters.

Also what you are presenting is a works-based salvation, because salvation depends on "your" continual belief. That is salvation based on what "you" do instead of what is done on your behalf.

That is not true at all. Everyone of the disciples turned their back on Jesus, and Peter flat out denied Him three times. There are people that have for whatever reason believed in the good news of eternal salvation and have been deceived into other religions. And there are people that have honestly believed in the good news of eternal salvation and have turned their back on God and no longer follow Him.

How do you know they were never saved? That amazes me that people continue to claim that they can know without a doubt who and who has not been saved. The Bible says that only God knows the heart of man. So how does Rev. Mitchell know something that God said only He knows?

That's the only way you can get around the contradiction, but the Bible doesn't support that at all.

Amen! That is exactly right according to Scripture.

No you didn't imply it, and even deny it, but the way your view Scripture you contradict yourself, but you try verbally not to.

If you believe that John 3:16 deals with eternal salvation then security is a farse whether you believe it or not. Because again John 3:16 says if I am currently believing and I continue to believe until I take my last breath then I have life. But at any point I stop believing then I lose my life, becuase life is dependant upon my believing.

So what I'm trying to show you is the contradiction that you place on Scripture by saying John 3:16 is regarding eternal security.

Hope that makes sense.

 

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

 

Mt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven

Pretty clear.


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Strong's Number: 4100[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT]pisteuvw[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from (4102)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Pisteuo[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]6:174,849[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]pist-yoo'-o [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Verb [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Definition[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
   1. of the thing believed
      1. to credit, have confidence
   2. in a moral or religious reference
      1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
      2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
   1. to be intrusted with a thing

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]King James Word Usage - Total: 248[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]believe 239, commit unto 4, commit to (one's) trust 1, be committed unto 1, be put in trust with 1, be commit to one's trust 1, believer 1[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]KJV Verse Count [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Matthew[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]9[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Mark[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]14[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Luke[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]9[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]John[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]86[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Acts[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]36[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Romans[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]20[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1 Corinthians[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]8[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]2 Corinthians[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Galatians[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]4[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Ephesians[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]2[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Philippians[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1 Thessalonians[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]5[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]2 Thessalonians[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]3[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1 Timothy[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]3[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]2 Timothy[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Titus[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]2[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Hebrews[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]2[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]James[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]2[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1 Peter[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]4[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1 John[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]7[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Jude[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Total[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]220[/FONT]
To believe is not works salvation. That shows a lack of understanding of who gets the credit.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power F2 to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

He who has the power gets the credit.

 

Kingdom of God = Both the present Kingdom and the future Kingdom in other words from now on.

Mt 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
The Kingdom encompasses all that is under Gods rule. For the word Kingdom can also be translated "Gods rule".

It includes salvation, submission to him, the gospel of the cross, his reign, his rule, his redemption, his ressurection, his death, his burial, etc.

Only human philosophy can make it anything short of that. Which is what you get when you read from men like this:

http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Erjvelema/rve_e/predelcn.pdf

 

Rev. Mitchell you are doing what a lot of people on this board do. You cherry pick a verse and because a "key" word is in the verse you automatically unload your meaning to the Scripture.

Just because the word salvation appears doesn't mean that it is speaking of eternal salvation. The context has to tell you the meaning of the words, not church tradition and the teachings that have been handed down from generation to generation.

The key to the context is believing that God hath raise him from the dead. That is not eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is not based on His resurrection, but rather His death and shed blood.

His resurrection has to do with what comes after eternal salvation. And there is a salvation after eternal salvation. Context, context, context.

Again what is the context of this Scripture? It's not eternal salvation. Just a couple of passages down it is talking about taking up one's cross and finding or losing one's life. The context is works, therefore it is not eternal salvation, because eternal salvation is not based on the works of man, but rather the works of Christ alone.

Exactly!

To believe is not works salvation exactly. But a continual believing is a works based salvation, because you are not relying on what Christ has done for you, but you are relying on your own continued belief.

It's not a matter of who gets the credit for it. The matter is whose doing the action. If you are relying on your action then you are relying on works based salvation. If you are relying on Christ's actions then you are believing in grace through faith.

In order for your idea to be possible God would have to force you to believe every day for it not to be a reliance on yourself, but on God. And that's not the way God lays it out in Scripture. He does not force someone to believe.

To as many as received him, that's the key. They had done this in the past it wasn't a continual receiving, but a one-time receiving.

When these folks received him God game them the power to become (something in the future - future salvation) sons of God.

This is talking about those that were saved (done deal not a continual saving) God gave the power to mature in the faith so that they could one day become sons of God.

The emphasis is on the maturation process here.

See the Bible just makes so much sense when we get out of the way and just let the Bible be the Bible and let the Spirit be the Teacher!

 

Rev. Mitchell what are you talking about? You even said yourself that God's Kingdom has to do with rulership. Kingdom has to do with government.

The verse you are talking about is the message that was being delivered to the Jews. You are very confused about what the message of the kingdom is all about. The message of the kingdom is about the governmental control over this earth.

John the Baptist never spoke of the the death of Christ, never spoke of His shed blood, never spoke of the cross, never spoke of his burial or resurrection. Now I could be stand to be corrected, but right off the bat I don't remember him saying anything about those things.

He said Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

The actual literal translation is the kingdom of the heavens, which is talking about the governmental control that Satan currently has over the earth from the heavens.

Israel was already offered and promised the earthly (physical kingdom), but there are two aspects of governmental rulership over the earth. There is a physical rulership and there is a rulership from the heavens.

John the Baptist, Christ and the apostles were offering the heavenly aspect of the kingdom to Israel, because Abraham was to have a physical seed and a spiritual seed. But the Israelites rejected having any part to play in the heavenly aspect of the kingdom. And so the offer was taken away from them and offered to the one new man in Christ.

That is the gospel (good news) message to the spirirually alive person today. Christ has been raised from the dead and you can accept a position of rulership in His coming kingdom. And then you can accept or reject the same offer that was offered to Israel.

That's the message in a nutshell and it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with human philosophy. It has to do with the way Scripture lays out the matter.

 

Revmitchell says of Matt. 3:2:

He is right. I agree with him. 'Kingdom of God' is a good news means gospel.

Christ doesn't say that he offered a temporaily physical kingdom to Jews. Christ never teaching on 'a thousand years' anywhere in the four gospels.

J.J.

You always keep on saying of John 3:16 is not talk about eternal salvation.

I know John 3:16 well since I was boy at Lutheran church. I like John 3:16. I understand it well. It proves talk about salvation do include with eternal.

J.J., I am sure you already read John 3:16 thousands, thousands times in your life. Yet, you saying this is not talk about eternal salvation. Huh?

John 3:16 shows two important keys prove that it is talk about eternal. 1. 'should NOT PERISH' 2. 'but have EVERLASTING LIFE'.

'Should not perish' is speak of hell. Hell/lake of fire is a future final eternality punishment.

'But have EVERLASTING LIFE'. Does it say temporaily? Do you actual understand what word, 'everlasting' means?

I don't have to tell you the word of 'everlasting'. No excuse, you should already know what it is long time ago.

We as all Christians understand word, 'everlasting' simple mean forever and ever or eternal.

Yes, John 3:16 does matter with eternal salvation.

Many churches use John 3:16 to witness people for salvation.

I forget the name of a good deaf movie made from Bill Rice Ranch. It is talks about a true story of a deaf farmer was led to Christ by his pastor. I forget deaf man's name. Allen Snare, deaf missionary under Silent Word Ministries which founded by Ted Camp. Allen Snare played as deaf farmer in the film. Before deaf farmer became saved, his pastor tried to explaining gospel to him of salvation. But, the deaf man doesn't understand it. So, pastor shew him into the church building, and show him the cross, also, show pictures of Jesus died on the cross to him. At the same time, he shew him in the Bible of John 3:16. Then, he finally understand of Jesus died on the cross. Then, both bow down and asked Christ to forgive and accept Him.

Then several days later, a deaf man builted big cross located at outside side of road, it was about 20 feet tall. Then, he disturbed drivers on side of the road, tried show them of John 3:16, and he pointed them toward the cross. That driver was led by deaf man, he is now missionary.

That's wonderful! God blessed deaf man for to witness the gospel to people by use John 3:16 and pointed them toward cross.

Almost every Christianity churches in America know John 3:16 is a famous verse use for gospel of salvation.

You say,