John 3:16

I reject Whites EXEGESIS!

There is no reason to rebut the article

 

Then address his points with a meaningful counterexegesis or else your argument amounts to the "nana-nana boo-boo" defense.

 

James White makes the error of a false comparison. Men are not saved through love, though indeed they will love once they have been indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Men aren't saved through righteous living, though indeed they will live righteously once they have been indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Men are saved by faith, through which the promised Holy Spirit comes to dwell (Gal. 3:14) thus bringing the fruits of love and righteous living along.

Jesus goes on to pray for "those who will believe through their message." Christ was praying first for his disciples and then for those who would believe. The message was first to come to the Jews (apostles) and they were to take the message to the world...to every creature.

John Calvin himself taught the universality of God's love for the world. Modern day Calvinist such as MacArthur also affirm it, because it is the clear meaning of the text. God loves all his creation for God is love.

 

But I did, I told you that White's letter holds a very strong Calvinist BIAS! And that is what White is accusing Hunt of, Holding a BIAS that is not CALVINIST! The Old "Pot calling the Kettle black" syndrome.

 

The context of Matt 7:14?

I will state that the few are those that truly follow Jesus Christ and that are not led astray by false teachings. How many 'teachings are there out there about Christ? Do we not have to strive to contend for the faith once delieverd for the saints. How come so many Christians "persish" because there minister is lazy to study, or they have bought into a false religion. Chris is warning HIs discples of false prohets.... there will be few that find it...

Now I beleive saved by grace and Matt 7:14 has to many works mean eternity to me..

besides Christ said He gave His life a ransom for many (not a few and not all) so to be consistent this must dealing with discipleship.

You may disagree but Christ taught a lot about living in this life and many scriptures are in a non-eternal context.

Ihope this helps

Brother Larry

 

John 3:16 doesn't provide any useful information as indicated by this discussion. The author of the statement can't be determined from the text.

 

The funny thing is White, Hunt, and Wes and Ray and I are all proving one thing... BIAS ! That's the funny thing isn't it? Just like natural man.. biased towards an intense hatred for God because his heart is evil and EVERYTHING that comes from it is biased FROM EVIL... Only God can change that. Man's reasoning will never change his heart because as everyone is proving the heart shows the bias NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. You don't change your bias to change your heart but the heart (stone) must be changed to create a new bias...

 

Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus. It is recorded that Nicodemus came to Jesus by night. It does not say that Jesus was alone, and for one think that he was indicates that one is "adding to" the report. The fact that the writing down of this information did not occur at the instant of it happening is a moot point because Jesus said in his prayer to the Father, John 17, that HE personally takes care of those the Father gave to him and I've already named them twice on this forum, and that HE always will. So it is unlikely that the writing is not accurate to event recorded. Thus Jesus told Nicodemus that God loved the world so much that God gave his only begotten son, that whosoever (in the world) believeth in Him (the Son) shall not perish, but instead shall have everlasting life (election by faith).

Well rc, I believe in God the Son! And it was the word of God that caused me to believe, because Jesus did not attend church with me, He was at His father's right hand as I was mine! God's word was at church and I learned from it and one day realized that I believe what the word says, and I took a chance and prayed to Jesus in hopes that he would hear my prayer. HE DID! and now I walk and talk with him all the time! We are kindred spirits because HE made me like unto his own image!

No, I do not make God conform to my knowledge of Him, He gives me the knowledge that forms my belief in Him to what He wants me to know.

Did I come to God all by myself and say God you gotta listen to me, I AM MAN! No, not in the least, I came to God as a little child wanting to be picked up and hugged! He did, and I have never been the same since!

Your screwball ideas of Bias are not even inside the ball park! You haven't even arrived in the parking lot. So get real!

 

First of all if you read this AS A JEW. (I am) You will see these texts properly... If you can (able to) get a Jew to read you all of these tension texts.. JN 3.16 chptr 6, 8,10,17 .... You'll be very suprised, and so will he!

Paul had to write All Israel is not Israel for a reason...And when Jesus was talking to the Rabbi He had in his mind Moses lifting up the serpent.
You have to be VERY CAREFUL when you try to divide God's word when not coming at it from a Jewish point of view... That's why it is SO important to understand the O.T. the way a Jew does and to know their teachings. The world has nothing to do with "The whole world" and in the Greek Jesus is very particular so Nicodemus would understand EXACTLY what He meant, knowing that he would try to understand every yod and tiddle... the whosoever is proper "the believing ones" not every person..Jew OR Gentile... You guys get everything confused, mixing the elect (believers) when scripture is talking about Israel and when scripture talks about Israel you want to say the elect! Not withstanding the particulars of the remnant... Remember there is a reason why .. To the Jew FIRST then also the Greek...

 

It does not take a rocket scientist to understand John 3:16. I know that this may be earth shattering for many but brace yourself......................The world means.........................The world. Wow do I ever feel intelligent.

(Do not mean to imply stupidity on any persons part, as Forrest Gump's momma said, "stupid is as stupid does.")

No amount of twisting and contorting will change the meaning.

From Albert Barnes:

I think I'll take the verse at face value in both the Greek and English.

In Christ

Chad

 

Your not taking the Greek at face value, your taking Barnes at face value. In the greek .. (if you know it) and SIMPLY think like a LEARNED Jew talking to a LEARNED Jew, the WORLD Jesus is comparing to the referance the story He told to Nicodemus (for this purpose) Just as a Jew would think, God had Moses raise up the serpent to save the Elect of the Elect (hmmm ... there's a term I bet you gentiles have never heard of before) would be saved... but Jesus is telling Nicodemus PLAINLY that God not only loved the Jews (in their mind "The Elect") but He loved the "Whole world" JEWS AND GENTILES.. not EVERY PERSON... The WORLD in the passage in Greek IS LINKED grammatically to "Whosover".. The whosover (sorry if you don't know greek but to take things "Plainly" you must get to particulars and you can't know particulars unless you study...Learn Greek!) is NOT IN THE GREEK! The ACTUAL PLAIN LITERAL text is THOSE BELIEVING ONES! (Which refers to the WORLD) for which He LOVED. Thus God so loved the "believing ones" that He gave... that the BELIEVING ONES should not parrish.. THAT'S the PLAIN, SIMPLE text..AND JEWISH UNDERSTANDING of the conversation.

John also wrote and is in concert with John 6 and 8, and 10, and 17. The shepard lays down His life for HIS sheep not all the sheep...

 

rc, since you have the jewish understanding, why don't you write the paraphrase in the jewish understanding. Paraphrase John 3:1-21 for us from the Jewish perspective. Perhaps then we will all understand it as you do.

 

This would take forever... There is much to say about "The seraph" incident alone... Did all get bitten? DID ANY LOOK AT the offering? IT DOES NOT SAY ! This is also linked to John 3.19-21 with Isaiah 59:2...

BUT all were NOT bitten (maybe?) not all died....There is a play on words also... "The serpent" word can also be a play on words as "To learn from experience"... A lesson to learn for what will happen in the future...

But Jesus telling Nikdimon this was showing that not ALL got that chance.. many (most?) died EVEN BEFORE God made the redemption possible! That doesn't seem FAIR does it? .. God can do what He wills with His creatures. He had mercy on whom He had mercey and the others got what they deserved JUST punishment....

That's all for now... I'll go back to vs 1 and 2 later... Being "Born Again" is very Jewish also..again implies the utter Soveriegnty of God...You didn't choose to be born did you? (tease)

 

rc,

You said,

Right. It was so Jewish that Rabbi Nicodemus thought Jesus was speaking of a physical birth. [vs. 4] You are really ‘pushing the envelope,’ but we are watching for your next mistake as to your great range of understanding of the Jewish mind of that day.

John chapter three does imply the sovereignty of God in that our Lord said to the rabbi that God did not send Jesus to condemn sinners but that the world ‘might’ be saved through Him. [John 3:17] God ‘lights every person coming into the world’ [1:9] because it is His desire that ‘ . . . all men through Him ‘might’ believe. [1:7] The atonement is sufficient for all but only efficient in those who believe, meaning the elect.

No, but God foreknew that I would receive His Son and He breathed into my soul everlasting life by God the Holy Spirit. [I Peter 1:2] The word, ‘foreknowledge’ is the Greek word, ‘prognossin’ meaning to know before hand.

Your doctor might make a prognosis about your best friends health, but the physician did not inflict the life threatening disease. By the same token, God knows who will believe unto life and who will reject His gift, [Ephesians 2:8] but He does not ordain the human decision. The person’s response of faith in Jesus is the pivotal factor which insures all of our hope of being with Him forever, because of the sure promises of God. One is that our justification is by faith. [Romans 5:1]

 

rc said,

That is precisely why Jesus' death on the cross ONE TIME FOR ALL TIMES removed the death penalty from man for sin! Those who died BC did not die because of sin any more than those who die AD. ATONEMENT for SIN is complete ATONEMENT!

Peter tells us that those who died BC were visited by Jesus

So, Jesus' Atonement for SIN covers all mankind from Adam forward!

No man is cast into the lake of fire for anything Except LACK OF FAITH IN GOD!

 

Ray,

Your using the NOUN form which is NEVER used for salvation texts (that is always used in secular humanistic philosophys (which is where you get your theology from) but the word in salvation, election texts are always the VERB form proginosko, which means "to know" like Adam "knew" Eve... He LOVED you before you were born... hmmm The prescient view is LACKING at best.

 

Wes,
You miss my point completely...Christ died for all (in time) for all (who believed and who will believe in Him.. who he chose...

What happened in Abraham's bossom was a "proclaiming"... that's it. In other words, He said ... TOLD YOU SO to those on the other side in hell while He took His elect in death to Heaven.

 

If God "loved" all of the Israelites why didn't He give ALL of them a chance to see the serpent?... MANY (OR MOST, ALL) died BEFORE He did this. Was that fair?

 

How do you know that? Venomous Snake bite fatality is seldom instantanious to humans. With some limited exceptions, snake venom takes many hours even days to kill large mammals. Man is considered a medium to large mammal. Additionally, Venom does not produce instant blindness in humans.

What I don't follow, is the ready availability of a bronze serpent and a cross. It seems it would have taken some considerable time to "smelter" the bronze and pound it into the shape of a snake. So where did it come from? How did it get raised so quickly?

 

Numbers 21:6. "The Lord sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died."

21:7 So the people came to Moses...(and then they asked him to intercede for them, etc., etc.).

According to Numbers many died prior to the raising of the serpent.