John 3:19-21

[Twiceborn]

John 3:19-21 KJV
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Vs.19: Not coming to the light is what condemns men.
Vs. 20: Every one who does evil refuses to come to the light.
Vs. 21 Only those who do truth come to the light.

Romans 3:12 KJV
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Every one that does evil refuses to come to the light.
"They are all gone out of the way"

Only those who do truth come to the light.
"there is none that doeth good"

Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Many believe that their own deeds saved them from hell:

"But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest"

What they fail to realize is that God first created us "in Christ Jesus unto good works".

"But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

1 John 2:29 KJV
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

God gets all of the credit!

 

[atpollard]

Many believe that their own deeds saved them from hell:

Very few believe that their own deeds save them. Classic Arminians and Wesleyan Arminians believe that God has granted men the option to reject His gift of grace. No more and no less.

All non heretical Christians acknowledge that salvation is a gift from God.

 

[atpollard]

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

For me, I always thought it significant that their good deeds “are wrought IN GOD.” That always reminded me of Ephesians 2:10 where God does the saving “by grace (not of yourself)” first (Eph 2:8-9) and THEN we walk in the good works that GOD CREATED IN ADVANCE for us to walk in.

 

[Scarlett O.]

God gets all of the credit!

Of course. I don't know a living soul - no true Christian who believes his good works save him.

Not one.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Very few believe that their own deeds save them. Classic Arminians and Wesleyan Arminians believe that God has granted men the option to reject His gift of grace. No more and no less.

All non heretical Christians acknowledge that salvation is a gift from God.

How do you distinguish between "non heretical" and "heretical" Christians?


Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? | GotQuestions.org
"...Because salvation by works appeals to man’s sinful nature, it forms the basis of almost every religion except for biblical Christianity...."
"...Another reason why salvation by works is the predominantly held viewpoint is that natural or unregenerate man does not fully understand the extent of his own sinfulness or of God’s holiness. Man’s heart is “deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked”..."

Roman Catholics believe that baptism results in the subject becoming a child of God. Baptism is works.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Of course. I don't know a living soul - no true Christian who believes his good works save him.

Not one.

How do you determine which professing Christians are "true Christians"?

 

[atpollard]

How do you distinguish between "non heretical" and "heretical" Christians?

Personally, those who deny the Christ are heretical and to be treated as enemies or simply ignored. That is where I draw the line in the sand that I will die over.

I find the Nicene Creed a good point for identifying people with whom I am not likely to enjoy fellowship.


The genuine HERETICS that I encounter online are typically so far from orthodoxy that it is hard to point out where to start. An individual that comes immediately to mind believes that only the Apostles and Prophets are valid sources of scripture, so everything written by Luke and Paul and James, etc. are the “tares” sown among the “wheat” by Satan to deceive the faithful. From that starting point, he builds a doctrine that is unique and legalistic. I view him as a heretic.


That said, I feel no need to burn heretics. God can fight His own battles without my help. I just respond to obvious scriptural error with a biblically supportable counterpoint (for third party viewers, heretics tend not to listen to anything outside of their own inner voices).

 

[atpollard]

Roman Catholics believe that baptism results in the subject becoming a child of God. Baptism is works.

Roman Catholicism has a LOT of beliefs that are strange to Protestant ears, but you are not honestly stating what they believe. Can a Baptist that refuses to obey any of the commands of Jesus and desires no participation in any fellowship or ordinance really safely consider him/her self saved?

If not, then Baptists must believe in Works Salvation, too.

 

[Twiceborn]

Unfortunately, the majority of Baptists do believe that they are born again as a direct result of their own "good" choice.
They claim that God gets all of the credit, and then turn right around and say things like "I'm thankful that I was smart enough to make Jesus Lord of my life".

 

[Scarlett O.]

How do you determine which professing Christians are "true Christians"?

Well, since some are bearing fruit and some, because of backsliddeness, grief, or any other spiritual attack, are not bearing fruit....

...it's not mine to always make that call.

But I do look for perseverance and spiritual growth.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Personally, those who deny the Christ are heretical and to be treated as enemies or simply ignored. That is where I draw the line in the sand that I will die over.

I find the Nicene Creed a good point for identifying people with whom I am not likely to enjoy fellowship.


The genuine HERETICS that I encounter online are typically so far from orthodoxy that it is hard to point out where to start. An individual that comes immediately to mind believes that only the Apostles and Prophets are valid sources of scripture, so everything written by Luke and Paul and James, etc. are the “tares” sown among the “wheat” by Satan to deceive the faithful. From that starting point, he builds a doctrine that is unique and legalistic. I view him as a heretic.


That said, I feel no need to burn heretics. God can fight His own battles without my help. I just respond to obvious scriptural error with a biblically supportable counterpoint (for third party viewers, heretics tend not to listen to anything outside of their own inner voices).

You said: "Personally, those who deny the Christ...".
What professing Christian denies Christ? What about Christ do they deny?

Nicene Creed (A.D. 325) | CARM.org
"We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

Do you have any insight into which baptism the drafters on the Nicene creed had in mind that was/is required for the forgiveness of sins?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Roman Catholicism has a LOT of beliefs that are strange to Protestant ears, but you are not honestly stating what they believe. Can a Baptist that refuses to obey any of the commands of Jesus and desires no participation in any fellowship or ordinance really safely consider him/her self saved?

If not, then Baptists must believe in Works Salvation, too.

"...but you are not honestly stating what they believe."

I take being charged with be dishonesty seriously. Therefore, explain your charge.

I have never encountered a Baptist "...that refuses to obey any of the commands of Jesus and desires no participation in any fellowship or ordinance really safely consider him/her self saved?"

Therefore, I have no position on your hypothetical question.

 

[atpollard]

You said: "Personally, those who deny the Christ...".
What professing Christian denies Christ? What about Christ do they deny?

Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness, Christian Scientists deny His Deity.

Do you believe that there are no professing Christians that hold heretical beliefs? If not, then why am I being challenged on a statement that you do not even disagree with?

 

[atpollard]

"...but you are not honestly stating what they believe."

I take being charged with be dishonesty seriously. Therefore, explain your charge.

I have never encountered a Baptist "...that refuses to obey any of the commands of Jesus and desires no participation in any fellowship or ordinance really safely consider him/her self saved?"

Therefore, I have no position on your hypothetical question.

... Yet you accuse Catholics of works based salvation when they hold the same belief about a “sacrament”. That is a dishonest double standard.

Their view of salvation is more complex and nuanced than the simple “do good works to save yourself” that you paint it to be. Most of their doctrinal differences appear, to this non-Catholic, to stem from a worldview that God saves the Church collectively and sets out the sacraments by which God’s Grace makes one part of the Bride of Christ. Protestants, including Baptists, derive their (our) doctrine from a worldview that God saves individuals, and that act makes them (us) part of the Church, the Bride of Christ.

 

[atpollard]

Do you have any insight into which baptism the drafters on the Nicene creed had in mind that was/is required for the forgiveness of sins?

This one:

Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [There is] one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. [Ephesians 4:1-6 NASB]​

 

[Wesley Briggman]

This one:

Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [There is] one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. [Ephesians 4:1-6 NASB]​

Study Guide for Ephesians 4 by David Guzik
b. One baptism: Some think that because Paul says there is one baptism that the idea of the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a subsequent experience is invalid. But Paul only spoke here of the baptism by water which is the visible token of God’s common work in every believer, and thus a basis of unity. There aren’t separate baptisms for Jew and Gentile.

The "one baptism" spoken of in Eph. 4:5 is water baptism. Do you agree? If your answer is yes, then I understand your position is that water baptism is required in order to be saved. The RCC teaches that to be the only requirement for salvation - water baptism - works. If you do not agree that Eph. 4:5 is speaking of water baptism. then what is it speaking of?

Roman Catholicism has a LOT of beliefs that are strange to Protestant ears, but you are not honestly stating what they believe.

In your opinion exactly what am I not stating?

... Yet you accuse Catholics of works based salvation when they hold the same belief about a “sacrament”. That is a dishonest double standard.

Same belief about a sacrament as who?

I, as a Baptist do not practice any sacrament. What I do in regards to the mandates of Christ, I do to be found obedient. Not to gain His grace.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Personally, those who deny the Christ are heretical and to be treated as enemies or simply ignored. That is where I draw the line in the sand that I will die over.

Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness, Christian Scientists deny His Deity.

Do you believe that there are no professing Christians that hold heretical beliefs? If not, then why am I being challenged on a statement that you do not even disagree with?

First you said: " ..those who deny the Christ..."
I took that literally and concluded they denied His birth, etc. As I stated, I do not know of any professing Christian that denies Christ's existence.

Now you say: "Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness, Christian Scientists deny His Deity." I do not claim to know all the believes of these cults. However, I'll take your word that they all deny the Deity of Christ. Therefore, they are not children of God.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Well, since some are bearing fruit and some, because of backsliddeness, grief, or any other spiritual attack, are not bearing fruit....

...it's not mine to always make that call.

But I do look for perseverance and spiritual growth.

You must be an exceptional fruit inspector!

 

[atpollard]

I, as a Baptist do not practice any sacrament. What I do in regards to the mandates of Christ, I do to be found obedient. Not to gain His grace.

You are skillful at semantics, but you are equally skillfully avoiding the point that I have attempted to communicate in Catholicism. That is not dialogue, that is just debate. I came to dialogue, not to win a debate ... so I quit, you win, and enjoy your victory.

The STRAWMAN is slain!

 

[atpollard]

The "one baptism" spoken of in Eph. 4:5 is water baptism. Do you agree? If your answer is yes, then I understand your position is that water baptism is required in order to be saved.

You asked me to speculate on the thoughts of the authors of the Nicene Creed, so I did. I told you EXACTLY what Scripture I thought they had in mind when they wrote “one baptism”.

If you had asked for MY beliefs, I could have told you that I hold with absolute certainty that the baptism that saves is the Holy Spirit, since I was unequivocally saved by God over a decade before I happened to be water baptized (due to uncommon circumstances surrounding my conversion). I can also testify that God had marked me as His own from birth, even though I knew nothing of it and chose the most reprobate of lifestyles willingly. Thus I am a Particular Baptist (and a 5 pointer) based on reading scripture and personal experience, and I come to this belief through hearing the Gospel from Charismatic Catholics and being educated in scripture by Wesleyan Holiness churches (Church of God, Evangelical Free, Pentecostal).

My position on the question of Catholic and Protestant salvation is that both believe that obedience to Christ is the mark of a believer and required to be saved, those that choose to willfully disobey the commands to REPENT, to BE BAPTIZED, to EAT OF MY BODY AND DRINK OF MY BLOOD, to NOT FORSAKE ASSEMBLING TOGETHER, and the other commands, have good reason to fear for their salvation. The difference between an “ordinance” and a “sacrament” is semantics ... only GOD knows for certain the mechanisms by which He chooses to work.