John 3:19-21

[The Biblicist]

Jesus fulfilled the law, see Matthew 5:17.

Speaking of both Jews and Gentiles:

Rom. 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

You cannot honestly respond that this applies only to Jews since Paul says it applies to "BOTH" Jews and "GENTILES" (v. 9).

You cannot honestly respond that this applies only to SOME Jews and Gentiles as Paul says "there is NONE....NO, NOT ONE"

I anticipate you will simply ignore this clear Biblical testimony and philosophize/rationalize that some must be good and doing good or else.........etc.

Your problem is that God defines good differently than you define good. God defines good according to his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS when it comes to being "good" enough to enter heaven. His own GLORY is His standard of "good" and "ALL have come short of the GLORY OF GOD" (Rom. 3:23) and thus there are none good no, not one - NOT ONE!

Jesus also says "THERE IS NONE GOOD but one, and that is God" (Lk. 18:19).

He did not say "THERE ARE SOME that are not good"! This is what you say but not Christ or Paul or any writer in the New Testament.

Now, before men there are many judged to be "good" because men judge "good" relatively by comparing men with men. However, God's standard is HIMSELF and "good" is to be as good as God - "Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS God is perfect" (Mt. 5:46). That is how Jesus defines "good" enough to go to heaven. In order to go to heaven your goodness, righteousness must exceed the best of religious men"

"Except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees ye shall in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven." - Mt. 5:20

You won't accept God's Word so you pit scripture against scripture, rationalize and make up your own theology as you go along! Instead of dealing honestly with the scripture you just call everyone "calvinists" who dare use these scriptures simply because they don't fit your own rationalized humanistic theology.

 

[DHK]

I was not talking about evil people who sodomize others. I was talking about evil people who do good deeds. I was explaining about those who do good deeds but love darkness instead of the light. I had in mind those who might wonder about how people can do such wonderful things for other human beings, but why they reject the most beautiful and pure thing they will ever hear about, Jesus Christ. They reject Jesus and do not come to the light, because they who do good deeds for others sometimes, they love the darkness in their live more.

What are you trying to say here?
Do you know that the media tells us that many times a homosexual couple will do a better job at raising a child then many heterosexual couples do. (I stress the word many times.
Do you know that there are homosexual serving in our armed forced defending our nation. Is that not a good thing?
No, it is not good. Hopefully you can see that anything done by the homosexual is wrong. It is equally wrong in God's sight for anything done by any unsaved person. For everything that he does will never merit heaven. God does not look upon them. They are not even worthy to be considered.

It is a trained person in false doctrine who posts the scripture containing the words “filthy rags.” Study more of the passage.

4 Since ancient times no one has heard,
no ear has perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who acts on behalf of those who wait for him.
5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved?
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
7 No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us
and have given us over to our sins.
8 Yet you, LORD, are our Father.
We are the clay, you are the potter;
we are all the work of your hand.
9 Do not be angry beyond measure, LORD;
do not remember our sins forever.
Oh, look on us, we pray,
for we are all your people.
10 Your sacred cities have become a wasteland;
even Zion is a wasteland, Jerusalem a desolation.
11 Our holy and glorious temple, where our ancestors praised you,
has been burned with fire,
and all that we treasured lies in ruins.
12 After all this, LORD, will you hold yourself back?
Will you keep silent and punish us beyond measure?

The entire passage is a prayer. In verse six he admits that all the good we do are as filthy rags in God's sight. And it is. In verse 8 he begins a prayer of repentance with a realization of who we are in God's sight. God is the potter we are the clay. God is sovereign; He can do as he wishes. In verse 9, he asks for forgiveness. "Do not remember our sins forever he prays." He admits that he deserves the condemnation that he previously mentioned. That there is nothing good in ourselves; that all we do is as filthy rags. But he prays that God would not hold our sorry state against us, and forgive us because of his wonderful mercy and compassion. He praises him in verse 11.

 

[Moriah]

You quoted me saying, “Jesus fulfilled the law, see Matthew 5:17.”
Then you reply by saying:

Speaking of both Jews and Gentiles:

Rom. 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

You cannot honestly respond that this applies only to Jews since Paul says it applies to "BOTH" Jews and "GENTILES" (v. 9).

You need to explain how you get where I said something “only applies to Jews…” Is this another moment that you have a debate with made up things from your opponent?

You cannot honestly respond that this applies only to SOME Jews and Gentiles as Paul says "there is NONE....NO, NOT ONE"

I anticipate you will simply ignore this clear Biblical testimony and philosophize/rationalize that some must be good and doing good or else.........etc.

Again, you need to clarify what I said and what you say has to do with it. I will not carry on and answer questions you ask as if they are sensible.

Your problem is that God defines good differently than you define good.

Just do not say I define something, quote me where I have defined differently. I refuse to let get away with this type of debating.

"Except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees ye shall in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven." - Mt. 5:20

Go ahead and explain what this scripture means. You explain first, then I will explain it.

You won't accept God's Word so you pit scripture against scripture, rationalize and make up your own theology as you go along! Instead of dealing honestly with the scripture you just call everyone "calvinists" who dare use these scriptures simply because they don't fit your own rationalized humanistic theology.

When you falsely accuse me of something, it is then that I see clearly what you are guilty of. You said I “won’t accept God’s Word so you pit scripture against scripture…” That does sound exactly what you do.

 

[Moriah]

What are you trying to say here?
Do you know that the media tells us that many times a homosexual couple will do a better job at raising a child then many heterosexual couples do. (I stress the word many times.

Just because media makes a claim that does not mean it is so. However, even if a gay couple raised children better than heterosexual couples did, what point do you think you are making? Not all heterosexual couples are Christians. In addition, are you claiming that Christian heterosexual couples do not make mistakes in parenting? You need to clarify what you think your comments have to do with what I said.

Do you know that there are homosexual serving in our armed forced defending our nation. Is that not a good thing? No, it is not good.

Explain how it is not good to defend our nation. Do you think being a homosexual is a worse sin than a heterosexual person who rejects Jesus and claims to be an atheist?

Hopefully you can see that anything done by the homosexual is wrong. It is equally wrong in God's sight for anything done by any unsaved person. For everything that he does will never merit heaven.

God does not look upon them. They are not even worthy to be considered.

Is this another example of you making up things to argue against your opponent with? Where have I said that homosexuals or any non-believer can be worthy for God to consider?

In verse six he admits that all the good we do are as filthy rags in God's sight.

All of their righteous acts are like filthy rags because they continued to sin against God’s ways. Do you think that righteous acts are filthy rags? Do you think to wait for God is a righteous act as filthy rags? Do you think to remember God’s ways is as filthy rags? See Isaiah 64:4-5.
"All our righteous acts are like filthy rags." This is to say, they attempt to keep some parts of God’s Law, but their behavior is such that God will not accept their sacrifice. They go to the Temple to offer a sin offering, but they were not sorry. They may have made a big show of praying in the street and showing off their phylacteries, and refuse to assist the widows and orphans.
Can you see the condition of the Israelites at that time?
"No one calls on your name or strives to lay hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us and made us waste away because of our sins."

There were numerous righteous people in the Old Testament, such as Noah, Abraham, Ezra, Nehemiah, Samuel, Job, Daniel. God never said their righteous acts were like filthy rags.
When the Apostle Peter came to the house of Cornelius, he did not say to Cornelius and to his whole household that were gathered that all their righteous acts were like filthy rags. This would have been nonsensical—a misapplication of a prophecy to the unrighteous Jews of the days of Isaiah.
Rather, Peter commented favorably on the righteous behavior of Cornelius:
Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism But accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right." (Acts 10:34,35)

No individual is without sin. We all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. Only Christ can give us a new righteous nature by enabling us to share His own Divine Nature.

The expression "all our righteous acts are like filthy rags" does not apply to the Christians of today unless, like the Jews of Isaiah’s day, we have continued to sin, having turned away from God and His ways.
Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God, 2 Corinthians 7:1.

 

[DHK]

No individual is without sin. We all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. Only Christ can give us a new righteous nature by enabling us to share His own Divine Nature.

Then why have you been arguing against this truth. This is what I have been saying all along, and you have been denying it. We all sin. Only Christ can give us a new nature.

The expression "all our righteous acts are like filthy rags" does not apply to the Christians of today

That is what I have been saying. Why have you been arguing against me? Finally you agree. What made you change your mind?

unless, like the Jews of Isaiah’s day, we have continued to sin, having turned away from God and His ways.

Sin won't cause us to lose our salvation, but you are right in that God will not accept a "right sacrifice" with an "impure heart."

Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God, 2 Corinthians 7:1.

I wouldn't disagree.

 

[Moriah]

Then why have you been arguing against this truth.

You are the one arguing against the truth.

This is what I have been saying all along, and you have been denying it. We all sin. Only Christ can give us a new nature.

Quote me where I have denied it. Quote or repent.

That is what I have been saying. Why have you been arguing against me? Finally you agree. What made you change your mind?

You give all readers an example of dishonest debating, in my humble opinion. You have said I said things that I have not. You have come to my thread and argued against me, yet you accuse me of the things you do.

Sin won't cause us to lose our salvation, but you are right in that God will not accept a "right sacrifice" with an "impure heart."

If you continue to sin against God’s ways, why should God not punish you? Are you not the one who brought up Isaiah 64?

I wouldn't disagree.

You “wouldn’t disagree” with my quoting 2 Corinthians 7:1, but then you also say “sin won’t cause us to lose our salvation.” You are confusing readers. If sin does not affect our salvation, then why stop sinning?
Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God, 2 Corinthians 7:1.

 

[DHK]

If you continue to sin against God’s ways, why should God not punish you? Are you not the one who brought up Isaiah 64?

Look back at my posts.
I have continually explained to you that the good that man does cannot merit him eternal life. His good works are as filthy rags, if they are to merit eternal life. It would make the sacrifice of Christ vain, useless. Good works cannot merit eternal life, and therefore God looks upon them as filthy rags. They apply, therefore to the unsaved.

 

[Moriah]

Look back at my posts.
I have continually explained to you that the good that man does cannot merit him eternal life. His good works are as filthy rags, if they are to merit eternal life. It would make the sacrifice of Christ vain, useless. Good works cannot merit eternal life, and therefore God looks upon them as filthy rags. They apply, therefore to the unsaved.

Waiting on God is not a filthy righteous act. Remembering God’s ways are not filthy righteous acts. You do not understand the scriptures. It is never okay to sin, not even after Jesus saves you. If you do not feel bad for your sins, and intend to stop sinning and follow Jesus after you learn of him, then do you believe Jesus will still save you? Even the demons believe there is One God.

 

[DHK]

Waiting on God is not a filthy righteous act. Remembering God’s ways are not filthy righteous acts. You do not understand the scriptures. It is never okay to sin, not even after Jesus saves you. If you do not feel bad for your sins, and intend to stop sinning and follow Jesus after you learn of him, then do you believe Jesus will still save you? Even the demons believe there is One God.

Why do you talk like this? No one ever said that they never felt "bad" or remorse over sin after they were saved. Where do you get this idea from? This is almost like an inferred false accusation. Where did anyone of us say that?

What we did say, is that it is impossible, even for a Christian, to go through life without sin. The Scripture backs that up in many places, especially in 1John 1:8,10; 2:1,2.

 

[Moriah]

Why do you talk like this? No one ever said that they never felt "bad" or remorse over sin after they were saved. Where do you get this idea from? This is almost like an inferred false accusation. Where did anyone of us say that?

.

You said feel remorse for sin AFTER they were saved. Do you not believe one feels remorse for sin before they are saved?
In addition, are you now reconsidering what you had once believed to be all righteous acts being as filthy rags?

 

[DHK]

You said feel remorse for sin AFTER they were saved. Do you not believe one feels remorse for sin before they are saved?
In addition, are you now reconsidering what you had once believed to be all righteous acts being as filthy rags?

When one gets saved they ought to feel remorse for sin.
After one gets saved and they sin, they should feel remorse for any sin they have committed. But that sorrow should not swallow them up with such grief that they should fear of losing their salvation, for that will never happen. We confess our sins, and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Our fellowship is restored and we continue on.

The reference to "filthy rags" is a reference to man's good works before he is saved. There is nothing the unsaved man can do to please God. Christ died for his sins. The wrath of God abides on that man. Not until he trusts Christ as Savior will God's wrath be appeased. It will not be satisfied with that sinner's good works. Those works are like filthy rags in the sight of God. Anything that I did before salvation was as filthy rags in the sight of God.

 

[Moriah]

When one gets saved they ought to feel remorse for sin.

Are you saying one ought to feel remorse when they are saved, or before they are saved?

The reference to "filthy rags" is a reference to man's good works before he is saved.
There is nothing the unsaved man can do to please God. Christ died for his sins. The wrath of God abides on that man. Not until he trusts Christ as Savior will God's wrath be appeased. It will not be satisfied with that sinner's good works. Those works are like filthy rags in the sight of God. Anything that I did before salvation was as filthy rags in the sight of God.

The reference to filthy rags was to God’s people, the Jews.

 

[DHK]

Are you saying one ought to feel remorse when they are saved, or before they are saved?

When the Holy Spirit convicts them of the enormity of their sin; they are criminals against a holy and righteous God. They have sinned against the Holy One, the God of Heaven.

The reference to filthy rags was to God’s people, the Jews.

And........
There is one interpretation, but many applications.

 

[Moriah]

When the Holy Spirit convicts them of the enormity of their sin; they are criminals against a holy and righteous God. They have sinned against the Holy One, the God of Heaven.

You still have not answered. Does the person feel remorse for sin before they are saved?

And........
There is one interpretation, but many applications.

There are not many applications. The filthy rags scripture is about God’s people, the Jews.

 

[DHK]

You still have not answered. Does the person feel remorse for sin before they are saved?

My answer was clear enough.

There are not many applications. The filthy rags scripture is about God’s people, the Jews.

It is a quote from the OT. We use the principle that is being taught.

 

[Moriah]

My answer was clear enough.

In a world of false doctrines, no, you did not make it clear enough. Calvinists believe that a person does not feel remorse until after Jesus saves them. So you see, you did not answer clearly enough.

It is a quote from the OT. We use the principle that is being taught.

You use it falsely. It is a quote in the Old Testament about the Jews, and Paul references it in the New Testament about the Jews.

 

[DHK]

In a world of false doctrines, no, you did not make it clear enough. Calvinists believe that a person does not feel remorse until after Jesus saves them. So you see, you did not answer clearly enough.

Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come,
Let this blest assurance control,
That Christ has regarded my helpless estate,
And hath shed His own blood for my soul.


My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought!
My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more,
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!
--Horatio Spafford.

You use it falsely. It is a quote in the Old Testament about the Jews, and Paul references it in the New Testament about the Jews.

Any good work not done to the glory of God is as filthy rags in God's sight.

 

[Moriah]

Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come,
Let this blest assurance control,
That Christ has regarded my helpless estate,
And hath shed His own blood for my soul.

My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought!
My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more,
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!
--Horatio Spafford.

You need to rethink what you have been preaching about sin and salvation.
Romans 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Luke 21:19 By standing firm you will gain life.
Romans 2:10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
Galatians 6:8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Any good work not done to the glory of God is as filthy rags in God's sight.

The scripture about filthy rags were about God’s people, the Jews.

 

[The Biblicist]

Calvinists believe that a person does not feel remorse until after Jesus saves them.

False! Read 2 Cor. 7:10-11! There is a natural convicting power of the word of God that does not produce Godly sorrow unto salvation (seen in Judas). However, that is exactly what God uses upon the elect prior to regeneration. In regeneration there is a godly sorrow that leads to conversion. Regeneration and conversion are inseparable in time but not in logical order or in cause versus consequence relationship. However, all that is far too above your comphrension level.

You use it falsely. It is a quote in the Old Testament about the Jews, and Paul references it in the New Testament about the Jews.

You are just plain ignorant of the scriptures. Don't you realize that ALL OF THE NEW TESTAMENT teaching on the nature of fallen man is taken from the Old Testament Scriptures???????? Find any teaching in the New Testament about the fallen condition of man that is not drawn from the Old Testament scriptures!!!

All of it is based upon Genesis 2:17-3:15. Paul draws his teachings about the condition of fallen man from David and the Psalms and other Old Testament prophets!

Do you really think the fallen condition of a Jew is different than the fallen condition of a gentile??? Are you that ignorant???? The fallen condition is not unique to Jews!!!!! Go back to your pastor and learn the abc's of scripture (if he knows them)!

Isaiah 65:4-6 equally describes all men "FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE for ALL have sinned..." (Rom. 3;23).

 

[Moriah]

However, that is exactly what God uses upon the elect prior to regeneration. In regeneration there is a godly sorrow that leads to conversion.

You just contradicted yourself. You said God does something prior to regeneration. Then you go on to say, “In regeneration there is a godly sorrow…” It cannot be both ways. In addition, you say I am wrong, and then go on to explain exactly what I said.

Regeneration and conversion are inseparable in time but not in logical order or in cause versus consequence relationship. [edited for rudeness and slander]

Calvinists do not believe an unsaved person can have remorse for sin that leads to Jesus saving them. Calvinists believe that God saves the person first and makes them born again first.

[edited for rudeness and slander] Don't you realize that ALL OF THE NEW TESTAMENT teaching on the nature of fallen man is taken from the Old Testament Scriptures???????? Find any teaching in the New Testament about the fallen condition of man that is not drawn from the Old Testament scriptures!!!

You miss the point greatly. The point is that without understanding what righteous acts are as filthy rags, and to whom this is spoken to, then you will not use this scripture correctly, nor believe the truth. The point is that this was said to God’s people.

All of it is based upon Genesis 2:17-3:15. Paul draws his teachings about the condition of fallen man from David and the Psalms and other Old Testament prophets!

The scripture about filthy rags were about God’s people, the Jews.

Do you really think the fallen condition of a Jew is different than the fallen condition of a gentile??? [edited for rudeness and slander] The fallen condition is not unique to Jews!!!!! [Edited for rudeness and slander]

It is important to know to whom the scriptures are speaking.

Isaiah 65:4-6 equally describes all men "FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE for ALL have sinned..." (Rom. 3;23).

Paul was explaining that the Jews were not different than the Gentiles were when it came to sinning. It is important to know the truth. It is important to know what filthy rags are about, or else you get strange teachings such as total depravity.