Yes, that's your usual cowardly reply whenever you don't have an answer . . .
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John 3:5 does not require (or even speak about) Baptism for Salvation (The Other Denom, Edition)
- Thread starter Reformed1689
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
No, it's my reply when you commit the strawman fallacy by misrepresenting our position.
ORIGEN
“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).
AUGUSTINE
“The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic” (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, I thought I asked for an APOSTOLIC FATHER.
Particular
Well-Known Member
I am stating what the Bible actually stated.
You are espousing the false statements of the Council of Trent, which sealed the fate of the Roman Catholic Church as being unwilling to repent of its sin and heresy.
God is Supreme and Sovereign. From the garden to the present, God redeems those whom he graciously chooses to redeem. They repent of their rebellion because God brings them to repentance. They (I) can no more resist than a newborn can resist being held in a mother's arms.
God does all the work because God is Supreme and He does whatever He wills to do.
Don't imagine for a second that you can resist Him.
Particular
Well-Known Member
Let's see.
200 years after the Apostles. Written by a man who likely wasn't even a Christian, but taught heresy. (Origen)
350 years after the Apostles and is clueless as to whether the Apostles actually taught infant baptism. (Augustine)
Maryson, you are grasping at imaginary straws and clinging to church tradition with zero concern for what God has revealed in the Bible.
If you believe that a born again person cannot fall away and be lost - then please explain the following excerpt to me from the Book of Hebrews - because NOBODY here has been able to do so . . .
Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
This same "Epignosis" is written about in the following passage:
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I do.
I also see that context can be more than just "immediate", as in 2 Peter 3:9 with the "us-ward", "any" and "all" being the "beloved" from verse 8.
It can be "greater", such as when comparing "hearing" in Matthew 11:15, with John 8:43-47, Romans 10:17 and Revelation 2:7.
Believe it or not, I agree...
To an extent.
But I would point you to the above as my clarification for why I would agree.
Context is not always immediate.
For example, take "world" in John 3:16-17 and Romans 11:12-15 ...
The immediate context is not exactly something I would call "obvious" by reading just John 3, or parts of Romans 11.
But bring in Revelation 5:9 and Revelation 7:9 ( and a few others ) and what do we have?
The Scriptural definition of "world" for John 3:16...saved people out of every tongue, tribe and nation.
The definition of "foreknowledge" / "foreknown" in Romans 8:29-30 ( and others ) is not immediately known unless one brings in Jeremiah 3:5 and select Psalms, like Psalms 139:16 for that information.
Sometimes context can be determined immediately, sometimes not.
Sometimes a person has to let the Scriptures sit a while... and then come back later, re-read them in a quiet place and see what God, in His grace, is going to reveal to our dull minds the 4th time ( or even 40th time ) through.
Yet, Scripture defines and "interprets" Scripture... with every word and concept dependent upon, and agreeing with, things God said elsewhere in His word.
In order to prove your case to me ( that "water" in John 3:5 means "physical birth" ), I would ask you to bring in other passages that develop that...otherwise, what I see us having is an isolated case where that understanding might not be true.
Wouldn't you agree?
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Particular
Well-Known Member
Once again, you fail to read the entire passage. If you had, you would know the author is not saying a believer can lose his salvation.
There are two types of people in the church. The ones who know Jesus as their Savior and the ones who have had a taste of Christianity, but walk away. The author is referring to the the latter. These were never saved in the first place. The author concludes the passage with a strong statement confirming that the redeemed believer will not fall away.
Hebrews 10:19-39 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. For, “Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay; but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
Second, you ignore Jesus words.
John 6:35-40 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 10:3-4,14-18,25-30 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
John 17:14-26 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify themin the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself,that they also may be sanctifiedin truth. “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”
You are left with this.
Will you follow Christ and trust his word or will you turn your back on Christ and his word and follow your church?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
No I wouldn't agree in this instance.
WRONG.
The word “Epignosis” connotes a full, experiential and relational knowlegede – like a person has for their spouse. This is more than “knowledge” (oida, gnosis).
This is not a “Catholic” definition.
The following is Protestant scholarship on the biblical term, “Epignosis”.
Richard Chenevix Trench notes, “In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).
Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).
He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”
J.B. Lightfoot commenting on epignosis, notes, “The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge...Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).
Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"
The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul
Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith
Bottom Line: The passages I cited show a born again person - that is a person with Epignosis of Christ - can turn away and be LOST forever by his own doing.
Particular
Well-Known Member
You make your choice to follow your church then. So be it.
To us, Jesus and the Church are one - they are inseparable. Just like when a man and woman are wed they become one, so it is with Christ and the Church.
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