John 6:37 and Irresistible Grace

[psalms109:31]

I did address it

It is believers that God is going to save and it is believers.

It is not unbelievers that the Father has picked to be saved but believers.

He sees the scripture in with his doctrine, as I see it through God's love for the world.

It depends on what prospective you see those scripture on how you see it.

 

[Martin]

They refuse to address these scriptures you posted, and many more. I understand. I used to be a free willer. I still believe man makes choices and as much as they can be free, they are. But to ignore so much scripture that God has given us for a reason...... I could not continue to do so.

==I can relate. I was once in their camp as well, and I also was once in the anti-Lordship (so-called) camp (the camp of Zane Hodges, etc). A person has to realize they are wrong before they can change. For me (on the anti-Lordship position) it took several months of Bible study, prayer, and then during a frosty morning hike in the woods it hit me like a pack of nails...I was wrong. I had been teaching/believing false doctrine. Let me tell you, that will set you back a bit. That will cause you to sit up and take notice. I repented then and there. You know what? God forgave me and the Word of God itself opened up in a way I had not known in a long time. For the first time I was able to read certain verses and not wonder why it did not fit what I was believing. It was a wonderful breath of fresh air. It took some time to gather my thoughts, to re-think my position, and to move forward. However God, by His grace, allowed me to do so.

Now on the doctrines of grace it was different. It took several years of study (etc). There were no eye opening momenets (etc). Rather it was a slow realization. Interesting that this started shortly after that frosty winter morning.

But before any change can occur a person must be willing to critically examine their own position and admit that maybe, just maybe, they got it wrong. There is really no shame in that as long as a person is honest and willing to change. I know, I have been there.

Martin Luther, Calvin, and many more great theologians before and after them, worked hard at study of scripture and appologetics. They wrote many great books. Yet so many people who could not hold a candle to them, run them down. They think their theology is man made.

==The "man-made" claim really does not impress me. When someone makes that accusation usually it means they are not able, or willing, to engage the Biblical text on the issue.

I wish they would honestly address the scriptures and come to biblical conclusions. Paul did tell Timothy to work hard at study. I believe it is for us too.

==Certainly it is and certainly some will try to honestly address the Scriptural issues related to these questions. However there are others who, for what ever reason, simply will not. When I run into people like that, in person or on a board, I simply walk away. I refuse to go in circles.

 

[Martin]

It is believers that God is going to save and it is believers. It is not unbelievers that the Father has picked to be saved but believers.

==What?

He sees the scripture in with his doctrine, as I see it through God's love for the world. It depends on what prospective you see those scripture on how you see it.

==Right. I am sticking with the Word.

 

[psalms109:31]

I am not going in circle's with you

He cut His own people out for unbelief.

God choose before even the foundation of the world to save believers.

It is believers that will come to Jesus and be saved and unbelievers wilkl be condemned.

Whosever believes shall be saved so it is those who will co,me to Jesus.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

You may not understand how that happens, but the hope we have is for every one.

People try to search the scripture to find another way, but all scripture points to Jesus for salvation. Those who believe in Jesus are elected unto salvation.

 

[Blammo]

Very, very good, Martin. You had me stumped there for a bit. But I did manage to come up with a question. (Please forgive me, I know I am being stubborn about it. My Dad read a calvinist tract when he was about 18 years old. The doctrine, or the way it was presented, bothered him so much he would not even listen to the gospel til about 5 years ago. Praise God someone finally gave him the simple gospel message and he believed. It only took about 45 years. Also, I have always been told of dead churches, lack of evangelism, and arrogance all associated with calvinism. So I have a prejudice against the docrine.) My prejudice against the calvinist docrine is slowly dwindling, but I am not quite there yet. These two verses, however, may have given me the biggest kick in your direction.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here is my question:

Is drawing the same thing as giving?

The verses do not tell us the Father only draws who He gives to the Son.
The verses do not tell us what happens between the drawing and the giving.
I will concede that it seems illogical that an all-knowing God would draw a man that He does not intend to give to His Son. But the verses do not say all that the Father draws will be given to the Son.

Are we back to foreknowledge again? It always seems to come back to foreknowledge.

 

[psalms109:31]

Trust in Jesus

You must trust in Jesus and you will not be disappointed.

God has opened the door that men try to close.

 

[Blammo]

Blammo..... brother, I was wondering when you were going to respond. :tongue3:

Oops.... I posted that before you were through replying...lol

I read the first line and thought..... (What?!?, I haven't responded yet)

You crack me up. :laugh:

 

[Martin]

Enjoyed reading your post.

==Certainly a compliment I don't get that often. :smilewinkgrin:

Where we differ is "if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me" It is a universal offer but it can not be universal salvation. That is impossible. Now before you jump for joy the dividing line gets back to "foreknowledge" and that is where the two shall not meet although they try.

==I agree that John 12:32 certainly does not universal salvation. What I see from the majority of popular evangelicals when they reply to this issue is borderline universalism. They try to use John 12:32 to somehow "off-set" John 6:37,44 (etc) yet they end up using arguments that would logically lead to universalism. That is what I was really replying to here. The popular, anti-reformed/anti-irresistible grace, response.

Jesus always does the will of the Father...Jesus always obeys the Father.

==On this we agree.

In short all that the father gives to Jesus will believe. I see this election on the basis of foreknowledge. God knew who would believe and these He gave to Jesus

==I don't see any support for this assertion in John's Gospel nor in the rest of the New Testament. However I certainly welcome your input if you wish to explain your position here further.

 

[psalms109:31]

I agree

I agree with those scripture also, but it is believers that will come to Jesus.

It is not that the door has been closed to anyone, but only believers will come when drawn and it is them that will be raised in the last day.

 

[Martin]

Please forgive me, I know I am being stubborn about it. My Dad read a calvinist tract when he was about 18 years old. The doctrine, or the way it was presented, bothered him so much he would not even listen to the gospel til about 5 years ago. Praise God someone finally gave him the simple gospel message and he believed. It only took about 45 years.

==I am glad to hear that your father is now a child of God. It just goes to show that those who are Christ's sheep will, at some point, come to follow Him.

Also, I have always been told of dead churches, lack of evangelism, and arrogance all associated with calvinism. So I have a prejudice against the docrine.

==Are there dead churches that are calvinistic? Yes. However there are many churches that are calvinistic that are very much alive. I would point to Grace Community Church in California (John MacArthur) as just one example. My church leans calvinistic (though not as much as I do) and it is certainly not dead. Our preacher preached a sermon on election this past Sunday night. Arrogance, I am sad to say, is a church-wide problem not just limited to Calvinists or Arminians. But, anytime you get a bunch of sinners together...well you know.

My prejudice against the calvinist docrine is slowly dwindling, but I am not quite there yet. These two verses, however, may have given me the biggest kick in your direction.

==I am glad but please don't take my word for anything. Dive into God's Word, dive into prayer, dive into Bible study, and stick with His Word. Only agree with the doctrines of grace, so-called, if you have learned them directly from His Word.

Is drawing the same thing as giving?

==Good question. I would answer "yes". Why?

John 6:37-39,44, and 65, are really making the same point. They use different language but they are coming to the same conclusion. All that the Father gives Jesus will come to Him (vs37) and only those the Father draws to Jesus can come to Jesus (vs44) and only those the Father grants to come to Jesus can come to Him (vs65). Verse 37 is the positive, verses 44 and 65 are the negative. Hope that is clear...

But the verses do not say all that the Father draws will be given to the Son.

==I think verse 37, in its context, does make that point. What I am trying to say is that if you put the whole chapter together, indeed the whole Gospel of John, that seems to be the point.

Are we back to foreknowledge again? It always seems to come back to foreknowledge.

==For some, yes. However I would caution that the "popular" understanding of "foreknowledge" really puts salvation under man's control with God responding. That is certainly not the picture we get from the New Testament.

Thanks for the reply.

Got to run, I am going to fry some chicken tonight...after all I am a good baptist. :laugh:

 

[reformedbeliever]

I hope you don't mind my input Blammo. I know you don't. And I know you are seeking truth. I'm so sorry that your father was presented with the doctrine in a hateful way. It is easy to do.
What I want you to look at is the word draw. The word as it is used here is like a team of horses drawing a wagon. They are pulling it along. Or water being drawn from a well. Neither would get where they are going without the drawing. It is used as dragging something. Not that anyone is dragged to Jesus against their will. They are pulled to Him by the Spirit. It is when the Spirit causes them to be born again that they will believe. When they have been given a nature to respond. Of course they are not born again by the will of man, but of God. I wish I was more articulate. Maybe Martin will put it better than I will. Grace and peace brother.

 

[Blammo]

==I am glad to hear that your father is now a child of God. It just goes to show that those who are Christ's sheep will, at some point, come to follow Him.

If you are a calvinist, yes, and amen. But for 20 of the 45 years I had no assurance of that. Also, if I had believed that way, how sincere would my prayers have been, and would I have felt compelled to preach the gospel to him every chance I got?

==Are there dead churches that are calvinistic? Yes. However there are many churches that are calvinistic that are very much alive. I would point to Grace Community Church in California (John MacArthur) as just one example. My church leans calvinistic (though not as much as I do) and it is certainly not dead. Our preacher preached a sermon on election this past Sunday night. Arrogance, I am sad to say, is a church-wide problem not just limited to Calvinists or Arminians. But, anytime you get a bunch of sinners together...well you know.

Yes, regardless of my comment above, I am beginning to understand this.

==I am glad but please don't take my word for anything. Dive into God's Word, dive into prayer, dive into Bible study, and stick with His Word. Only agree with the doctrines of grace, so-called, if you have learned them directly from His Word.

Yes sir, and amen, as I said, it was the two verses that kicked me.

==Good question. I would answer "yes". Why?

John 6:37-39,44, and 65, are really making the same point. They use different language but they are coming to the same conclusion. All that the Father gives Jesus will come to Him (vs37) and only those the Father draws to Jesus can come to Jesus (vs44) and only those the Father grants to come to Jesus can come to Him (vs65). Verse 37 is the positive, verses 44 and 65 are the negative. Hope that is clear...

==I think verse 37, in its context, does make that point. What I am trying to say is that if you put the whole chapter together, indeed the whole Gospel of John, that seems to be the point.

I can see what you are saying. I will have to study it... again. That is the best thing about these discussions for me. (It causes me to study and study and study....)

==For some, yes. However I would caution that the "popular" understanding of "foreknowledge" really puts salvation under man's control with God responding. That is certainly not the picture we get from the New Testament.

In our understanding of time, yes. But I don't think we have a full understanding of how God created, sees, works, knows, and causes His plan to go according to His will.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Here is the word in strongs, Blammo. G1670
ἑλκύω, ἕλκω
helkuō helkō
hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.

G138
αἱρέομαι
aihreomai
hahee-reh'-om-ahee
Probably akin to G142; to take for oneself, that is, to prefer. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate (ἕλλομαι hellomai), which is otherwise obsolete: - choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai, hel-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.

G1667
ἑλίσσω
helissō
hel-is'-so
A form of G1507; to coil or wrap: - fold up.

 

[Blammo]

I hope you don't mind my input Blammo. I know you don't. And I know you are seeking truth. I'm so sorry that your father was presented with the doctrine in a hateful way. It is easy to do.
What I want you to look at is the word draw. The word as it is used here is like a team of horses drawing a wagon. They are pulling it along. Or water being drawn from a well. Neither would get where they are going without the drawing. It is used as dragging something. Not that anyone is dragged to Jesus against their will. They are pulled to Him by the Spirit. It is when the Spirit causes them to be born again that they will believe. When they have been given a nature to respond. Of course they are not born again by the will of man, but of God. I wish I was more articulate. Maybe Martin will put it better than I will. Grace and peace brother.

You don't give yourself enough credit.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

In this verse - Is the "I will raise him up at the last day" referring to the drawn, or those who come. I know you believe the drawn will come, but assuming the drawn do not come, who will He raise up at the last day? Those who come, right?

I need a bit more scriptural proof that those who are drawn can not resist. If they resist, will God force them? Maybe you don't believe that God draws men that have not already been regenerated, thus given a nature that causes them to come.

 

[reformedbeliever]

In this verse - Is the "I will raise him up at the last day" referring to the drawn, or those who come. I know you believe the drawn will come, but assuming the drawn do not come, who will He raise up at the last day? Those who come, right?

We have to look at who the "him" is. Who is the "him"? Those whom the Father draws.

I need a bit more scriptural proof that those who are drawn can not resist. If they resist, will God force them? Maybe you don't believe that God draws men that have not already been regenerated, thus given a nature that causes them to come.

Oh Blammo... I do believe they can resist. I did for years. But they will eventually come. We do not know the time frame. I do believe that their nature has to be changed before they will believe in a saving way (to have faith). God is in control. He does not fail.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I smell fried chicken!

 

[Blammo]

We have to look at who the "him" is. Who is the "him"? Those whom the Father draws.

The "him" can not come unless the Father draw "him", if the father draws "him" and "him" comes, "him" will be raised at the last day. :laugh: Am I an exegete now? :laugh:

It still seems to me there are two parts and both have to happen. (Drawn and cometh)

Oh Blammo... I do believe they can resist. I did for years. But they will eventually come. We do not know the time frame. I do believe that their nature has to be changed before they will believe in a saving way (to have faith). God is in control. He does not fail.

Looking back I would have to say God's draw on me was strong, resistable for some time, but strong. And obviously I eventually surrendered so...

 

[reformedbeliever]

The "him" can not come unless the Father draw "him", if the father draws "him" and "him" comes, "him" will be raised at the last day. :laugh: Am I an exegete now? :laugh:

It still seems to me there are two parts and both have to happen. (Drawn and cometh)

You are doing fine. Its kinda like this in John 1:12-13. Many say that those who believe are born again... because believing is mentioned first (John 1:12) but when you read ahead in John:13 it says who are born....... We have to look at who the who is......lol Those who received Him... those who believe on His name.... they were born... not of blood or flesh, or the will of man, but of God. Unless one is born again... he will not believe in a saving way.

I know it is hard.... especially after what your dad experienced. I had a hard time trying to forget what all I had been taught... or what I had not been taught. The fact is that whosoever will receive Him and believe in Him in a saving way, they will be saved. We have to differentiate between simple belief and saving belief. I do not see how anyone can have saving belief without being born again..... per John 1.
I hope I have made this clearer than mud...lol Grace and peace.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Ok... I'm grilling chicken and I've gotta go. I don't wanna burnt sacrifice. I'm trying to avoid the fried kind Martin... although I love it. Grace and peace brothers.

 

[Martin]

Ok... I'm grilling chicken and I've gotta go. I don't wanna burnt sacrifice. I'm trying to avoid the fried kind Martin... although I love it. Grace and peace brothers.

==I usually go with baked or grilled as well but once and a while I like it fried. I use to eat alot better than I do now. I have not had a soda since 2002, but I have a weak spot for tea. If I could only lose the tea I think I would be in pretty good shape.