John 6:37 and Irresistible Grace

I did address it

It is believers that God is going to save and it is believers.

It is not unbelievers that the Father has picked to be saved but believers.

He sees the scripture in with his doctrine, as I see it through God's love for the world.

It depends on what prospective you see those scripture on how you see it.

 

I am not going in circle's with you

He cut His own people out for unbelief.

God choose before even the foundation of the world to save believers.

It is believers that will come to Jesus and be saved and unbelievers wilkl be condemned.

Whosever believes shall be saved so it is those who will co,me to Jesus.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

You may not understand how that happens, but the hope we have is for every one.

People try to search the scripture to find another way, but all scripture points to Jesus for salvation. Those who believe in Jesus are elected unto salvation.

 

Very, very good, Martin. You had me stumped there for a bit. But I did manage to come up with a question. (Please forgive me, I know I am being stubborn about it. My Dad read a calvinist tract when he was about 18 years old. The doctrine, or the way it was presented, bothered him so much he would not even listen to the gospel til about 5 years ago. Praise God someone finally gave him the simple gospel message and he believed. It only took about 45 years. Also, I have always been told of dead churches, lack of evangelism, and arrogance all associated with calvinism. So I have a prejudice against the docrine.) My prejudice against the calvinist docrine is slowly dwindling, but I am not quite there yet. These two verses, however, may have given me the biggest kick in your direction.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here is my question:

Is drawing the same thing as giving?

The verses do not tell us the Father only draws who He gives to the Son.
The verses do not tell us what happens between the drawing and the giving.
I will concede that it seems illogical that an all-knowing God would draw a man that He does not intend to give to His Son. But the verses do not say all that the Father draws will be given to the Son.

Are we back to foreknowledge again? It always seems to come back to foreknowledge.

 

Trust in Jesus

You must trust in Jesus and you will not be disappointed.

God has opened the door that men try to close.

 

I read the first line and thought..... (What?!?, I haven't responded yet)

You crack me up. :laugh:

 

I agree

I agree with those scripture also, but it is believers that will come to Jesus.

It is not that the door has been closed to anyone, but only believers will come when drawn and it is them that will be raised in the last day.

 

I hope you don't mind my input Blammo. I know you don't. And I know you are seeking truth. I'm so sorry that your father was presented with the doctrine in a hateful way. It is easy to do.
What I want you to look at is the word draw. The word as it is used here is like a team of horses drawing a wagon. They are pulling it along. Or water being drawn from a well. Neither would get where they are going without the drawing. It is used as dragging something. Not that anyone is dragged to Jesus against their will. They are pulled to Him by the Spirit. It is when the Spirit causes them to be born again that they will believe. When they have been given a nature to respond. Of course they are not born again by the will of man, but of God. I wish I was more articulate. Maybe Martin will put it better than I will. Grace and peace brother.

 

If you are a calvinist, yes, and amen. But for 20 of the 45 years I had no assurance of that. Also, if I had believed that way, how sincere would my prayers have been, and would I have felt compelled to preach the gospel to him every chance I got?

Yes, regardless of my comment above, I am beginning to understand this.

Yes sir, and amen, as I said, it was the two verses that kicked me.

I can see what you are saying. I will have to study it... again. That is the best thing about these discussions for me. (It causes me to study and study and study....)

In our understanding of time, yes. But I don't think we have a full understanding of how God created, sees, works, knows, and causes His plan to go according to His will.

 

Here is the word in strongs, Blammo. G1670
ἑλκύω, ἕλκω
helkuō helkō
hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.

G138
αἱρέομαι
aihreomai
hahee-reh'-om-ahee
Probably akin to G142; to take for oneself, that is, to prefer. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate (ἕλλομαι hellomai), which is otherwise obsolete: - choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai, hel-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.

G1667
ἑλίσσω
helissō
hel-is'-so
A form of G1507; to coil or wrap: - fold up.

 

You don't give yourself enough credit.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

In this verse - Is the "I will raise him up at the last day" referring to the drawn, or those who come. I know you believe the drawn will come, but assuming the drawn do not come, who will He raise up at the last day? Those who come, right?

I need a bit more scriptural proof that those who are drawn can not resist. If they resist, will God force them? Maybe you don't believe that God draws men that have not already been regenerated, thus given a nature that causes them to come.

 

We have to look at who the "him" is. Who is the "him"? Those whom the Father draws.

Oh Blammo... I do believe they can resist. I did for years. But they will eventually come. We do not know the time frame. I do believe that their nature has to be changed before they will believe in a saving way (to have faith). God is in control. He does not fail.

 

I smell fried chicken!

 

The "him" can not come unless the Father draw "him", if the father draws "him" and "him" comes, "him" will be raised at the last day. :laugh: Am I an exegete now? :laugh:

It still seems to me there are two parts and both have to happen. (Drawn and cometh)

Looking back I would have to say God's draw on me was strong, resistable for some time, but strong. And obviously I eventually surrendered so...

 

You are doing fine. Its kinda like this in John 1:12-13. Many say that those who believe are born again... because believing is mentioned first (John 1:12) but when you read ahead in John:13 it says who are born....... We have to look at who the who is......lol Those who received Him... those who believe on His name.... they were born... not of blood or flesh, or the will of man, but of God. Unless one is born again... he will not believe in a saving way.

I know it is hard.... especially after what your dad experienced. I had a hard time trying to forget what all I had been taught... or what I had not been taught. The fact is that whosoever will receive Him and believe in Him in a saving way, they will be saved. We have to differentiate between simple belief and saving belief. I do not see how anyone can have saving belief without being born again..... per John 1.
I hope I have made this clearer than mud...lol Grace and peace.

 

Ok... I'm grilling chicken and I've gotta go. I don't wanna burnt sacrifice. I'm trying to avoid the fried kind Martin... although I love it. Grace and peace brothers.