John 6:44 and ability to come to Christ

[Moriah]

John 6:44 proves that faith is not a work of man but a work of God because no man can "come to Christ" (synonymn for believe in Christ) except God draw him. When God draws what is being drawn comes and thus ability to believe is being drawn by God and thus a work of God not of man.

Please Biblicist, please consider having a change of heart about Calvinist beliefs.

Read this post about how God draws us...

We DRAW near to God because of a better HOPE given us than that of the law; we hope in the perfection we receive through Jesus. See Hebrews 7:18, 19.That is how God draws us!

Hebrews 7:18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

 

[The Biblicist]

Please Biblicist, please consider having a change of heart about Calvinist beliefs.

Read this post about how God draws us...

We DRAW near to God because of a better HOPE given us than that of the law; we hope in the perfection we receive through Jesus. See Hebrews 7:18, 19.That is how God draws us!

Hebrews 7:18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

First, I do not have any Calvinist belief's. I have Bible beliefs. I never quote Calvin or any other man to defend my beliefs. I quote the Bible and base my beliefs on Biblical context not Calvin. I have never read Calvin or Augustine.

Your understanding of the term "draw" is not Biblically based. Look at the term and how it is used in scripture and then we will have something to discuss.

 

[Moriah]

First, I do not have any Calvinist belief's. I have Bible beliefs. I never quote Calvin or any other man to defend my beliefs. I quote the Bible and base my beliefs on Biblical context not Calvin. I have never read Calvin or Augustine.

Your understanding of the term "draw" is not Biblically based. Look at the term and how it is used in scripture and then we will have something to discuss.

You completely discount the scriptures. What discussion can continue with you when you do not accept scripture? In addition, you quote Calvin EVERYTIME you post about total depravity of man.

 

[The Biblicist]

You completely discount the scriptures. What discussion can continue with you when you do not accept scripture? In addition, you quote Calvin EVERYTIME you post about total depravity of man.

Well, since you have NEVER given scripture to support a thing you say, how do you know?

The Greek term "helkua" is translated "draw" in John 6:44 and it is used eight times in the Greek New Testament and in every case it means to "compel" and in John 6:44 it means inward compulsion. If you doubt this then simply look at a Bible concordance and see for yourself. If I am wrong about its Biblical usage and meaning, then simply point it out in the scriptures where it means any other thing.

 

[Moriah]

Well, since you have NEVER given scripture to support a thing you say, how do you know?

The Greek term "helkua" is translated "draw" in John 6:44 and it is used eight times in the Greek New Testament and in every case it means to "compel" and in John 6:44 it means inward compulsion. If you doubt this then simply look at a Bible concordance and see for yourself. If I am wrong about its Biblical usage and meaning, then simply point it out in the scriptures where it means any other thing.

You saying I never give scripture is a deceitful lie. Stop lying. You are fooling no one.

I already told you before that learning Greek will not help anyone get to the Truth. It is a snare to think one must learn Greek to understand the truth.

The word ‘draws’ plural, is in John 6:44; the word ‘draw’ singular, is in Hebrews. In English, the words ‘draws’ and ‘draw’ are the same!

Here is the English translation for ‘draws’ and ‘draw’: To influence to move or tend toward one's self; to exercise an attracting force upon; to call towards itself; to attract; hence, to entice; to allure; to induce.

I gave you what the Word of God says to what DRAWS us to God. It is not how Calvinists say. Give up you Calvinist beliefs; they are manufactured beliefs that speak of things not in God’s word.

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is the English translation for ‘draws’ and ‘draw’: To influence to move or tend toward one's self; to exercise an attracting force upon; to call towards itself; to attract; hence, to entice; to allure; to induce.

I gave you what the Word of God says to what DRAWS us to God. It is not how Calvinists say. Give up you Calvinist beliefs; they are manufactured beliefs that speak of things not in God’s word.

Do you even own a good Bible concordance??? A Strong's or a Young's Analytical concordance?

If you do, then simply look up the word "draw" used in John 6:44 and then look up the term "draw" in Heb. 7:19. You will find out they do not translate the same Greek term nor mean the same thing but represent two completely different terms altogether.

Are you a KJ only advocate? Even if you are, you must at least admit that the term "draw" has various meanings even in English and in the KJV.

For example if you take hold of a fish net and "draw" it to the ship, then the net is coming to the ship and being impelled to by your power:

Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw <1670> it for the multitude of fishes.

Joh 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew <1670> the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

For example, if you have a sword in your belt and you draw it out, it is being impelled by the force of your arm power to come forth:

Joh 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew <1670> it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.

For example, if you are mobbed by a great multitude that forcably brings you into the court that forcable action can be termed as "drew" or if the law demands your presence in court by the power of the law then that can be termed "draw" by the power of the law.

Ac 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew <1670> them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

Ac 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew <1670> him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw <1670> you before the judgment seats?

In contrast the term "draw" when associated with the term "nigh" can mean to be "come near" something or as it is translated many times "be nigh at hand" but when it is used that way in the New Testament it is never translates the same Greek term as the term used previously (#1670 - strongs number - which is the term found in John 6:44) but represents a totally different Greek term (#1448 which is the term found in Heb. 7:19).

Heb. 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto <1448>God.

Here the Greek term is translated by three words "draw nigh unto" and is elsewhere translated "be nigh at hand." So Hebrews 9:17 does not teach what you force upon the term "draw" as the term here is an expression of NEARNESS rather than influence as you wrongly suggest.

Just get your concordance out and look at it.

 

[Moriah]

Do you even own a good Bible concordance??? A Strong's or a Young's Analytical concordance?

I do not use those tools anymore; they do not help one in the Truth. Our Bibles have been translated to English. You look to an English Bible and try to translate it back to Greek. Calvinists love to learn Greek to try to prove their false beliefs; which is more proof that learning Greek does nothing to further one in the Truth.

If you do, then simply look up the word "draw" used in John 6:44 and then look up the term "draw" in Heb. 7:19. You will find out they do not translate the same Greek term nor mean the same thing but represent two completely different terms altogether.

Who has bewitched you?

Are you a KJ only advocate? Even if you are, you must at least admit that the term "draw" has various meanings even in English and in the KJV.

Have you not noticed that I rarely quote scripture from the KJV? You are not very observant.

For example if you take hold of a fish net and "draw" it to the ship, then the net is coming to the ship and being impelled to by your power:
Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw <1670> it for the multitude of fishes.
Joh 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew <1670> the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
For example, if you have a sword in your belt and you draw it out, it is being impelled by the force of your arm power to come forth:
Joh 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew <1670> it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.
For example, if you are mobbed by a great multitude that forcably brings you into the court that forcable action can be termed as "drew" or if the law demands your presence in court by the power of the law then that can be termed "draw" by the power of the law.
Ac 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew <1670> them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
Ac 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew <1670> him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw <1670> you before the judgment seats?
In contrast the term "draw" when associated with the term "nigh" can mean to be "come near" something or as it is translated many times "be nigh at hand" but when it is used that way in the New Testament it is never translates the same Greek term as the term used previously (#1670 - strongs number - which is the term found in John 6:44) but represents a totally different Greek term (#1448 which is the term found in Heb. 7:19).
Heb. 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto <1448>God.
Here the Greek term is translated by three words "draw nigh unto" and is elsewhere translated "be nigh at hand." So Hebrews 9:17 does not teach what you force upon the term "draw" as the term here is an expression of NEARNESS rather than influence as you wrongly suggest.
Just get your concordance out and look at it.

As I have said before, all your studying into Greek does not help you. I have shown you from the WORD OF GOD how we are drawn to God. Please give up your false doctrines. Only believe in the Word of God.

 

[The Biblicist]

I do not use those tools anymore; they do not help one in the Truth.........Have you not noticed that I rarely quote scripture from the KJV? You are not very observant.

Do you claim direct revelation from God then???? Do you claim to be a prophet of God? Do you believe you are inspired by God?

If not, then what is the basis for selecting one English version over another? For example, how do you know the English version that omits half of Mark 16 is better than the KJV which does not? How do you know one reading in one English translation that differs from another reading in another English translation is correct or incorrect?

Do you claim direct revelation from God to make your choice of versions?


You obviously did not recognize the explicit meaning of the word "draw" in those eight texts I listed as they contradicted the definition you gave. You continue simply to ignore the Biblical evidence placed before you - you don't even make any comment in regard to any of those Biblical texts which oppose your theory and definition! Why? Do you think Calvin wrote those scriptures?

 

[Moriah]

Do you claim direct revelation from God then???? Do you claim to be a prophet of God? Do you believe you are inspired by God?

If not, then what is the basis for selecting one English version over another? For example, how do you know the English version that omits half of Mark 16 is better than the KJV which does not? How do you know one reading in one English translation that differs from another reading in another English translation is correct or incorrect?

Do you claim direct revelation from God to make your choice of versions?


You obviously did not recognize the explicit meaning of the word "draw" in those eight texts I listed as they contradicted the definition you gave. You continue simply to ignore the Biblical evidence placed before you - you don't even make any comment in regard to any of those Biblical texts which oppose your theory and definition! Why? Do you think Calvin wrote those scriptures?

Draw and draws mean the same. The Bible tells us how we are drawn! In John 6, the Father draws us; in Hebrews, we draw near to God. that is probably why the different Greek words.
In John 6, because they recognize what Jesus said as the word of God. In Hebrews, we draw near to God because of a better hope. In both scriptures, we see that it is about hearing that we are drawn.

Please stop with the Calvinist beliefs. It is as if you have been bewitched…believing in man’s assumptions, where God speaks plainly, Calvinists speak of things not in the Bible, and you believe what they say! The Bible tells us how we are drawn, yet Calvinists invent some strange doctrine that humans cannot believe after learning of Jesus, yet that is how we get faith and believe!

 

[convicted1]

Uh, Moriah, I am most assuredly not a Calvinist, but a lot of times, if you don't take words back to the Greek, you don't get the best understanding of what is being conveyed through the scriptures.

 

[Moriah]

Uh, Moriah, I am most assuredly not a Calvinist, but a lot of times, if you don't take words back to the Greek, you don't get the best understanding of what is being conveyed through the scriptures.

You fell for the snare too.

We do not have to learn Greek to understand God's word.

 

[convicted1]

You fell for the snare too.

We do not have to learn Greek to understand God's word.

No Brother, there is no snare. Remember, the NT was written in the Greek centuries before it was translated into english.

Here is an example of how the Greek gave me a bigger picture of Jesus and His divine powers. When Jesus brought the widow's only son back to life, in the KJV, it stated that Jesus touched the "bier". Now, I thought the word "bier" was an old english word referring to his body, and that when Jesus touched him, he came back to life. When I went to see the Greek word for "bier", it was referring to his coffin. So this showed me that Jesus had so much power that He didn't even need to touch someone to heal them/raise them from the dead. This made Him that much more marvellous in my eyes.

Greek word used for Bier: soros σορός
G4673

1) an urn or receptacle for keeping the bones of the dead

2) the funeral couch or bier on which the Jews carried their dead forth to burial

 

[Moriah]

No Brother, there is no snare. Remember, the NT was written in the Greek centuries before it was translated into english.

Here is an example of how the Greek gave me a bigger picture of Jesus and His divine powers. When Jesus brought the widow's only son back to life, in the KJV, it stated that Jesus touched the "bier". Now, I thought the word "bier" was an old english word referring to his body, and that when Jesus touched him, he came back to life. When I went to see the Greek word for "bier", it was referring to his coffin. So this showed me that Jesus had so much power that He didn't even need to touch someone to heal them/raise them from the dead. This made Him that much more marvellous in my eyes.

Greek word used for Bier: soros σορός
G4673

1) an urn or receptacle for keeping the bones of the dead

2) the funeral couch or bier on which the Jews carried their dead forth to burial

My English Bible says coffin. As for Jesus healing without touching the person, that has happened more times than just with the widow's son. You have fallen for a snare. You do not have to learn Greek.

 

[convicted1]

My English Bible says coffin. As for Jesus healing without touching the person, that has happened more times than just with the widow's son. You have fallen for a snare. You do not have to learn Greek.

The Greek was written under the inspiration of the Almighty. The english through the translation of man. Take your choice. If I could read Greek, I'd probably read Greek more than english. Since I can't read english, I use the Strong's, plus I have the Hebrew/Greek interlinears written by Jay Green, which are quite good. If you don't want to learn from the Greek, by all means do it that way. Please don't look awkwardly at those of us who do.

 

[Moriah]

The Greek was written under the inspiration of the Almighty. The english through the translation of man. Take your choice. If I could read Greek, I'd probably read Greek more than english. Since I can't read english, I use the Strong's, plus I have the Hebrew/Greek interlinears written by Jay Green, which are quite good. If you don't want to learn from the Greek, by all means do it that way. Please don't look awkwardly at those of us who do.

Are you reading the original Greek scriptures, or are you translating your English scripture to Greek? I think it is wrong to give the impression to learn Greek is an asset to one's relationship with the Lord.

 

[convicted1]

Are you reading the original Greek scriptures, or are you translating your English scripture to Greek? I think it is wrong to give the impression to learn Greek is an asset to one's relationship with the Lord.

I am not suggesting that learning Greek will make one closer to God. But there are times when I think it is beneficial to get the Greek rendering of the word. If I have a doubt about something, I can go to my Strong's concordance, or I can go to the Hebrew/Greek interlinears, and see what that english word means in Greek.


It takes God to enlighten us to understand His word. It doesn't matter how many languages one knows, it takes God to give us the true meaning. I just think that going back to the Greek or Hebrew can help us from time-to-time.

 

[Moriah]

I am not suggesting that learning Greek will make one closer to God. But there are times when I think it is beneficial to get the Greek rendering of the word. If I have a doubt about something, I can go to my Strong's concordance, or I can go to the Hebrew/Greek interlinears, and see what that english word means in Greek.


It takes God to enlighten us to understand His word. It doesn't matter how many languages one knows, it takes God to give us the true meaning. I just think that going back to the Greek or Hebrew can help us from time-to-time.

I do not agree about using a concordance, and checking out the Greek words, but I understand what you are saying.

 

[The Biblicist]

Do you even own a good Bible concordance??? A Strong's or a Young's Analytical concordance?

If you do, then simply look up the word "draw" used in John 6:44 and then look up the term "draw" in Heb. 7:19. You will find out they do not translate the same Greek term nor mean the same thing but represent two completely different terms altogether.

Are you a KJ only advocate? Even if you are, you must at least admit that the term "draw" has various meanings even in English and in the KJV.

For example if you take hold of a fish net and "draw" it to the ship, then the net is coming to the ship and being impelled to by your power:

Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw <1670> it for the multitude of fishes.

Joh 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew <1670> the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

For example, if you have a sword in your belt and you draw it out, it is being impelled by the force of your arm power to come forth:

Joh 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew <1670> it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.

For example, if you are mobbed by a great multitude that forcably brings you into the court that forcable action can be termed as "drew" or if the law demands your presence in court by the power of the law then that can be termed "draw" by the power of the law.

Ac 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew <1670> them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

Ac 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew <1670> him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw <1670> you before the judgment seats?

In contrast the term "draw" when associated with the term "nigh" can mean to be "come near" something or as it is translated many times "be nigh at hand" but when it is used that way in the New Testament it is never translates the same Greek term as the term used previously (#1670 - strongs number - which is the term found in John 6:44) but represents a totally different Greek term (#1448 which is the term found in Heb. 7:19).

Heb. 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto <1448>God.

Here the Greek term is translated by three words "draw nigh unto" and is elsewhere translated "be nigh at hand." So Hebrews 9:17 does not teach what you force upon the term "draw" as the term here is an expression of NEARNESS rather than influence as you wrongly suggest.

Just get your concordance out and look at it.

I have proven by simply using the English term "draw" in the above scriptures that it does not mean what you say it does. You have no response. You could not respond to these texts. Instead, you simply ignore all these scriptures and repeat your false definition like a parrot.

I asked you several questions and you simply ignored every question. I will ask you again. How can you know WHICH English version to use since ALL English Versions do not say the same thing. If you refuse to use a concordance then HOW do you know the KJV is not right but the version you select to use is right?

Do you believe you are inspired by God? Do you believe you have direct revelation from God? Do you consider yourself to be a Prophet?

Please answer all the questions above directly and honestly or why continue this discussion at all if you cannot honestly and objectively respond to questions given you?

 

[Moriah]

I have proven by simply using the English term "draw" in the above scriptures that it does not mean what you say it does. You have no response. You could not respond to these texts. Instead, you simply ignore all these scriptures and repeat your false definition like a parrot.

I asked you several questions and you simply ignored every question. I will ask you again. How can you know WHICH English version to use since ALL English Versions do not say the same thing. If you refuse to use a concordance then HOW do you know the KJV is not right but the version you select to use is right?

Do you believe you are inspired by God? Do you believe you have direct revelation from God? Do you consider yourself to be a Prophet?

Please answer all the questions above directly and honestly or why continue this discussion at all if you cannot honestly and objectively respond to questions given you?

You have stated that you wanted to make a deal that you would leave your personal attacks aside, so stop with the personal attacks. Do you really think that I cannot think of insults to say to you?

You have not proven that the word draw and draws have different meanings. You have not proven that even a synonym for draw changes the meaning of the scripture! You ignore the scriptures that tell us how we are drawn! In John 6, we are TOLD that the people are drawn to Jesus because they recognize what Jesus was saying as God’s word! In Hebrews, we are TOLD we come near to God because of the better hope we are taught about.

 

[The Biblicist]

You have stated that you wanted to make a deal that you would leave your personal attacks aside, so stop with the personal attacks. Do you really think that I cannot think of insults to say to you?

You have not proven that the word draw and draws have different meanings. You have not proven that even a synonym for draw changes the meaning of the scripture! You ignore the scriptures that tell us how we are drawn! In John 6, we are TOLD that the people are drawn to Jesus because they recognize what Jesus was saying as God’s word! In Hebrews, we are TOLD we come near to God because of the better hope we are taught about.

Since you have again ignored the evidence, ignored the questions, I will simply repeat the evidence and repeat the questions until you deal with them or else what good is there to discuss anything with you???

Originally Posted by The Biblicist

For example if you take hold of a fish net and "draw" it to the ship, then the net is coming to the ship and being impelled to by your power:


Joh 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew <1670> the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

QUESTION: Did Peter talk the fish into coming into the boat? Did he merely attempt to influence their own decision to come willingly into the boat? Or did he FORCEFULL draw them into the boat? Please answer!



For example, if you have a sword in your belt and you draw it out, it is being impelled by the force of your arm power to come forth:

Joh 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew <1670> it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.

QUESTION: Did Peter talk his sword into willing coming out of his belt? Did he merely influence his sword to make its own decision and come willing forth to cut off the servants ear? Or did he FORCEFULLY draw his sword out and FORCEFULLY cut of the ear of this man? Please Answer!

For example, if you are mobbed by a great multitude that forcably brings you into the court that forcable action can be termed as "drew" or if the law demands your presence in court by the power of the law then that can be termed "draw" by the power of the law.

Ac 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew <1670> them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

Ac 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew <1670> him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

QUESTION: Did the mob talk Paul into going with them? Did they simply influence him to willfully come with them? Or did they "take" him and drag him forcefully into the marketplace and drag him out of the temple??? Please answer this!

Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw <1670> you before the judgment seats?

QUESTION: Do the rich man simply talk you into coming before the court? Do they simply influence you to respond by your own will to come to court? OR do they force you by the Law to appear? Please answer this?

In contrast the term "draw" when associated with the term "nigh" can mean to be "come near" something or as it is translated many times "be nigh at hand" but when it is used that way in the New Testament it is never translates the same Greek term as the term used previously (#1670 - strongs number - which is the term found in John 6:44) but represents a totally different Greek term (#1448 which is the term found in Heb. 7:19).

Heb. 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto <1448>God.

QUESTION: The tem "draw" here is associated with "nigh unto" and means something different than the words "drew" in all the above verses does it not? Here it means to COME CLOSE to God as saved people. THIS IS NOT TALKING ABOUT LOST PEOPLE as the context forbids it is talking about lost people.

Here the Greek term is translated by three words "draw nigh unto" and is elsewhere translated "be nigh at hand." So Hebrews 9:17 does not teach what you force upon the term "draw" as the term here is an expression of NEARNESS rather than influence as you wrongly suggest.


I have proven by simply using the English term "draw" in the above scriptures that it does not mean what you say it does. You have no response. You could not respond to these texts. Instead, you simply ignore all these scriptures and repeat your false definition like a parrot.

I asked you several questions and you simply ignored every question. I will ask you again. How can you know WHICH English version to use since ALL English Versions do not say the same thing. If you refuse to use a concordance then HOW do you know the KJV is not right but the version you select to use is right?

Do you believe you are inspired by God? Do you believe you have direct revelation from God? Do you consider yourself to be a Prophet?

Please answer all the questions above directly and honestly or why continue this discussion at all if you cannot honestly and objectively respond to questions given you?