John 6:44

[InTheLight]

Keep reading. "and I will raise him (who the Father drew) up on the last day."

Yes, the one who was drawn. The "him" (singular).

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[agedman]

Yes, the one who was drawn. The "him" (singular).

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

Yep, shows that the salvation is not by group, title, status, or any other merit.

Rather, God deals with the individual, drawing the individual, and the individual will be raised. A personal hope, a personal thankfulness, and a personal testimony of each individual.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Seems pretty clear to me. "No one can come to Me (Christ) unless the Father draws him (to Christ); and I will raise him (who the Father drew) up on the last day." Only those drawn by the Father will come to Christ and Christ will raise them all up on the last day. Couldn't be clearer.

I actually pretty much agree with that; it is very close to a restatement in the plural, but the "will come" should be "can come." What is not clear is that those who are drawn must come, only that they can come. Also not clear is the Father leaving some out forever. There may still be more hearing and learning from the Father that must first occur, before they can come, or do come. Also, is there anything demanding that the drawing be instantaneous, rather than a process?

 

[TCassidy]

What is not clear is that those who are drawn must come, only that they can come.

Except that is not what it says. It clearly says that Christ will raise him who has been drawn by the Father on the last day.

Not can.

Not might.

Not maybe.

WILL! Unequivocally WILL.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Except that is not what it says. It clearly says that Christ will raise him who has been drawn by the Father on the last day.
Not can. Not might. Not maybe. WILL! Unequivocally WILL.

"Will raise," yes, but "can come."

Didn't I read recently someone quoting RC Sproul saying theology must be done on a razor's edge? I agree such is true, if you insist on an interpretation.

The OP passage does not equate or conflate being drawn and coming as one and the same, nor that both must occur. A passage explicitly stating that all those drawn are forced to come would be helpful for those holding that position. This is not such a passage. It only indicates that the drawing precedes the coming. It does not say that the coming is sure, only enabled. What is sure is that one who is drawn by the Father and comes to Jesus will be raised.

Besides, Jesus said he would draw all men to himself (John 12:32, see below), which might then lead to the conclusion that all will be saved. Or you could claim that "all" does not mean "all" there, but that might prove inconsistent. Or you could claim that the Son drawing is not the same as the Father drawing, but then questions may arise regarding unity of the Godhead--obviously unacceptable. Or you could try to argue that the "if" in John 12:32 has not been fulfilled, but that cannot be true.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32)

 

[Jerome]

Charles Spurgeon, "Gathering to the Center":

He has been lifted up upon the cross, and therefore will draw all men unto Him.

The gospel when it is preached draws many to itself who are not saved by it; the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net which men cast into the sea, and it gathers fish of every kind.

You may belong, my dear brothers and sisters, to some little Bethel or select Ebenezer, but do not indulge the hope that all who professedly come to Christ even there, though they are all so admirably sound and orthodox, have all of them really come to Jesus

among the 12 selected by the Master, Judas Iscariot was found

 

[Iconoclast]

Revmitchell,

I recently saw this verse misused in another thread so I felt compelled to address this verse.

Is that the time you commented on it?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day.

The context of this verse is "come to me" in other words the context is all those who come to Christ.

No wrong once again.....The context says;
All the Father gives to me, shall come....it says nothing about anyone randomly coming on their own.

Jesus said in order to come to Christ the person that comes has to have been drawn. It also says that those who have come will be raised up in the last day. It is really very simple.

What is simple and obvious is you ignoring the electing love of the Father...

What it does not say is that all who are drawn will come.

This is a wicked and intentional falsehood as you try and undermine scripture one again.

It does not say that all who are drawn will be raised up. "I will raise him" the "him" is the one who comes as that is the context.

You falsely wrest the context and verses...

 

[TCassidy]

"Will raise," yes, but "can come."

"All the Father gives to me, shall come."

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I actually pretty much agree with that; it is very close to a restatement in the plural, but the "will come" should be "can come." What is not clear is that those who are drawn must come, only that they can come. Also not clear is the Father leaving some out forever. There may still be more hearing and learning from the Father that must first occur, before they can come, or do come. Also, is there anything demanding that the drawing be instantaneous, rather than a process?

"All the Father gives to me, shall come."

I brought up more than one issue regarding insisting on a Calvinistic interpretation of the OP verse. My last question in my first post (see above, and below) I see as an important aspect to deal with, and relates directly to the sentence preceding it, but perhaps my point is not quite clear?

There may still be more hearing and learning from the Father that must first occur, before they can come, or do come. Also, is there anything demanding that the drawing be instantaneous, rather than a process?

 

[Felipe Rios]

I recently saw this verse misused in another thread so I felt compelled to address this verse.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day.

The context of this verse is "come to me" in other words the context is all those who come to Christ. Jesus said in order to come to Christ the person that comes has to have been drawn. It also says that those who have come will be raised up in the last day. It is really very simple.

What it does not say is that all who are drawn will come. It does not say that all who are drawn will be raised up. "I will raise him" the "him" is the one who comes as that is the context.

While in verse 44 he is drawn (helko) in verse 65 he is given (didomee). A more clear translation of "given" (if you ask me) is "enabled". "Granted" is a good translation as well. What it doesn't say is "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father drags or makes him.”

Neither does it tell us how anyone was drawn. Scripture does tell us elsewhere how people are drawn.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel. For it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth: to the Jew first and to the Greek.

So where is the power to save men found? It is found in external sources. In this case we see God uses the preaching of the gospel. In times past we see that the gospel was accompanied by signs and wonders. Again all external sources.

The gospel is the sole means by which all men everywhere are drawn to Christ.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[InTheLight]

"All the Father gives to me, shall come."

So you're saying that all that are drawn, shall be given to the Father, and all of those shall come.

 

[agedman]

So you're saying that all that are drawn, shall be given to the Father, and all of those shall come.

I would consider the order you presented a slight bit out of alignment.

It is:
1) The Father draws - no one comes that is not drawn by the Father.
2) The Father who also sent Christ draws - significant in identification that the same Father that draws also sent the Son.
3) The Son will raise all the individuals that the Father draws.

Christ stated elsewhere that, because of obedience to the Father’s will in being crucified, He also has the general ability and will “draw all men,” however, I don’t recall that Christ ever expressed the statement of His draw as that promised resurrection statement of the Father’s drawing. But I could be wrong.

 

[agedman]

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, as was pointed out, the context is not the “come to me” but that “no man can come to me.”

This is significant because, as later posts revealed, RevM was basing the human condition and the effort by humans as the basis for also being included in self ability to the coming, and not totally that of the draw of the Father.

It was shown (by multiple folks) that he was adding something to the Scripture rendering that was not expressed in the purity of that Scripture.

When, if he had stayed with this original post and acknowledged the limits the Scripture expressed, he could have found agreement, he soon departed from the basic truth presented in John 6:44.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

What is not clear is that those who are drawn must come, only that they can come. Also not clear is the Father leaving some out forever. There may still be more hearing and learning from the Father that must first occur, before they can come, or do come. Also, is there anything demanding that the drawing be instantaneous, rather than a process?

"Will raise," yes, but "can come."
Didn't I read recently someone quoting RC Sproul saying theology must be done on a razor's edge? I agree such is true, if you insist on an interpretation.
The OP passage does not equate or conflate being drawn and coming as one and the same, nor that both must occur. ... What is sure is that one who is drawn by the Father and comes to Jesus will be raised.

I brought up more than one issue regarding insisting on a Calvinistic interpretation of the OP verse. My last question in my first post (see above, and below) I see as an important aspect to deal with, and relates directly to the sentence preceding it, but perhaps my point is not quite clear?

So, does no one want to address the question regarding drawing being a process related to hearing and learning? I said: "There may still be more hearing and learning from the Father that must first occur, before they can come, or do come. Also, is there anything demanding that the drawing be instantaneous, rather than a process?"
RT&

 

[Revmitchell]

So, does no one want to address the question regarding drawing being a process related to hearing and learning? I said: "There may still be more hearing and learning from the Father that must first occur, before they can come, or do come. Also, is there anything demanding that the drawing be instantaneous, rather than a process?"
RT&

Nothing demands that it be instantaneous.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Christ stated elsewhere that, because of obedience to the Father’s will in being crucified, He also has the general ability and will “draw all men,” however, I don’t recall that Christ ever expressed the statement of His draw as that promised resurrection statement of the Father’s drawing. But I could be wrong.

This is the passage I quoted and briefly commented on in relation to this discussion (see below). Your statement could be read to imply a disunity between the Son and the Father, that is, the Son draws all, but the Father, for whatever reason, then limits the draw. I don’t think that’s the Calvinist understanding I’ve seen, but I’m just pointing out a possible issue. --RT&

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” (John 12:32)

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Nothing demands that it be instantaneous.

Yes, given the hearing and learning from the Father that must first occur, before they can come, or do come, I do not see how the drawing could rightly be considered anything but a process whether one is Calvinist or not. But I don't want to put words in someone else's mouth, e.g., a Calvinist's.

 

[agedman]

Nothing demands that it be instantaneous.

I agree.

However, I consider that we would disagree on how effective or the end results of the draw.

 

[BobRyan]

I recently saw this verse misused in another thread so I felt compelled to address this verse.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day.

The context of this verse is "come to me" in other words the context is all those who come to Christ. Jesus said in order to come to Christ the person that comes has to have been drawn. It also says that those who have come will be raised up in the last day. It is really very simple.

What it does not say is that all who are drawn will come. It does not say that all who are drawn will be raised up. "I will raise him" the "him" is the one who comes as that is the context.

While in verse 44 he is drawn (helko) in verse 65 he is given (didomee). A more clear translation of "given" (if you ask me) is "enabled". "Granted" is a good translation as well. What it doesn't say is "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father drags or makes him.”

Neither does it tell us how anyone was drawn. Scripture does tell us elsewhere how people are drawn.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel. For it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth: to the Jew first and to the Greek.

So where is the power to save men found? It is found in external sources. In this case we see God uses the preaching of the gospel. In times past we see that the gospel was accompanied by signs and wonders. Again all external sources.

The gospel is the sole means by which all men everywhere are drawn to Christ.

I agree but in Romans 10 the point is made that the "Gospel" is not limited to the preacher - but that nature itself is spreading that Gospel invitation in very subtle tones - but spreading it all the same.

 

[Revmitchell]

I agree but in Romans 10 the point is made that the "Gospel" is not limited to the preacher - but that nature itself is spreading that Gospel invitation in very subtle tones - but spreading it all the same.

That is in Romans 1 not 10