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With all due respect, we all need to remember that what someone thinks is irrelevant. We have to ask What does the verse say? The verse says that the ones drawn will be raised up. There is no legitimate way to skip over that phrase. Of course, it also applies to the ones who come, because those who are drawn do come.
There is no difference here. Even if it is "irresistable" it still have to be responded to. The idea that God saves people against their will is a common charge made by people who are ignorant of Calvinism, or who are unwilling to listen to what Calvinism actually believes and teaches.
Absolutely. But the "raised up" is connected with "the drawn," not with "those who come." Remember, we ahve to deal with what the verse says. The Holy Spirit said it in a very particular way. If he had wanted to say something else, he certainly could have.
I wouldn't use the word irresistable. The verse merely declares that
I get the idea from the following quotes by Calvin:
First, remember that Calvinism is not based on the writings of Calvin. It is a POV about soteriology based on what Scripture says. Second, your quote (unsubstantiated) does not even address the point. My comment was that God doesn't save people against their will. He doesn't. Nor does he send people to hell against their will. Those who get saved are saved because they "will," and those who are not saved are not save because they "won't." Your quote addresses only their condition, not their will.
Why would you expect every mention of being "raised up" to address every single part of what's involved in it? No verses qualifies for any doctrine if that is the standard. The question is not "What don't certain verses say?" The question is, "What does this verse say?"
The better question is why would someone deny it? V. 44 is clear. The "only way" to be raised up is to be drawn and to come. Both of those go hand in hand. You don't have one without the other. Remember, the entire context. You don't expect people to parse your messages by taking each sentence one at a time. You take the sentences in context of the whole paragraph and the whole discourse. We should do no different with Jesus' words. No one pulls v. 44 out and declares anything. You are the one who was isolating it. Remember, I already appealed to the context of the discourse earlier.
I disagree. The first quote reads, "The reprobate like the elect are appointed to be so by the secret counsel of God's will and by nothing else" very clearly implying that man's will is not a factor at all. God appoints man to be either elect or reprobate according to the quote.
How can you reconcile this statement with man's total inability and the limited atonement? Either man can respond to God by the act of his free will (because they will) or he cannot.
But those are two different points. Go back and read what you were objecting to. I was commenting on the fact that God does not save people against their will, nor does he save people against their will. When someone is reprobate, it is not against their will. It is their will to reject God. When someone is saved, it is not against their will. It is their will to be saved.
How can you reconcile this statement with man's total inability and the limited atonement? Either man can respond to God by the act of his free will (because they will) or he cannot. </font>[/QUOTE]I am not sure where the conflict is. Because of sin, man’s “free will” always freely chooses to reject God. Limited atonement is totally irrelevant to that. Man is not forced to reject God. He does that freely because of sin.
And I am pointing that that it has nothing to do with the word you attach to it. You can call the drawing whatever you want. The text says that those who are drawn are raised up. According to the text, there is no room for someone to be “drawn” with the drawing of v. 44 and not be raised up. You have to add to the text to get around that.
Yes. But what you do is change the text so that the “drawn” are not the same as the “raised up.” That is adding to the text to get around that. You have to add an exception that is not found in the text.
Yes. There is nothing about that that Calvinism would disagree with. We do not belive (most of us anyway) that God forced you to get saved. He changed your will so that you willingly accepted. As Phil 2 says, It is God who is at work in you both to will and to do his good pleasure. The context there isn't salvation, but the principle is clear that God works in the will.
Yes.
Yes.
No. The drawing of the Father is the work by which he opens the mind, gives a new nature and new will with spiritual understaqnding, so that you willingly beleive.
Again, I think "irresistable" is a bad word for it. It fits the acronym nicely, but not the doctrine as most people think of it. It is better to think of it as an effectual call. It demonstrates the greatness of hte love of God in that he woos and wins his beloved elect. That is not to say that he doesn't love others. He certainly does. But he loves his elect in a saving way. Therefore, he did not just make salvation possible in hopes that some might accept. (They never would). He made it certain by drawing his beloved to himself. The love of God is so far beyond our imaginations that these attempts to put it in little boxes such as is often done by silly statements like "God loves your child more than you do" are absurd. It is so far off the point to argue such a thing in such a way. God's love of his chosen is not a love of possibility, but a love of certainty.
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/piper/irresistable.html
Pastor Bob,
I had been under the preaching of the gospel for a few weeks before I trusted Christ. The Holy Spirit convinced me that I was a sinner and that I needed to accept Jesus as the only way to heaven. I wasn't coaxed down the isle by a preacher. No one came to me and asked me to come forward. I felt the need of salvation to the degree that I acted upon the prompting of the Spirit in my life.