John 6:64-65 and objectivity

[prophet]

Revmitchell



Isn't that all you ever see? In your world every calvinist is an attack dog.
Only you can be the judge of all calvinist posts...

Ooh, Ooh, me too, in my World too.

 

[Iconoclast]

Jordan Kurecki

I mean think about how many people sit in church and go just for the benefits that might be there but are not there because they really believe in Christ?

How many of these disciples were following Jesus for the benefits without trusting in him and repenting of their sins?

Yes these are the many who put their hand to the plow and looked back.

I think based on the context What Jesus is trying to make us see is that we need to respond positively to the Gospel and accept it, that we cannot hope to pretend to be followers of Jesus for the benefits because at some point, .

God does not draw everyone savingly.There is a general call that goes to those who physically hear the word preached...it can be resisted.

there is that special effectual call that is never ultimately resisted.

the Father is going to stop drawing us for salvation if we reject too many times

No...I do not think God plows a field that he does not intend to plant.

The disciples all left Jesus because God stopped drawing them to himself, that does not mean that they did not have the chance to believe.

No..the left because as Jesus explained.....

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.



48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[OldRegular]

Actually, from an objective standpoint, this passage does not support either Calvinism or Armenianism. It could simply be talking about the fact that one does not simply and arbitrarily choose to get saved, but rather that there must be conviction of the holy spirit in order for man to be saved.

It says nothing about the Father only giving it to a select few, but only that the Father had to give it for it to happen.

It also doesn't say that the Father giving it makes it happen. But only that the Father giving it makes it possible.

Before you reject what Verses 64 and 65 teach you should consider the following:

John 6:35-40
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

There are several important points that Jesus Christ makes in this passage of Scripture. A large crowd has followed Jesus Christ because he had fed them on the previous day. In verse 35 Jesus Christ tells the people that He is the bread of life. He is not talking about food in a physical sense but Spiritual food.

In Verse 37 He states that ALL people that God the Father gives Him will come to Him. Two crucial points:

1. The Father gives people to Jesus Christ {the Incarnate God} and ALL these people WILL come to Him. If we look at John 6:65 we read:

Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

No one will, or can, come to Jesus Christ for salvation except those God the Father gives that person to Jesus Christ. Those so given are the elect.

2. Those whom God the Father gives Jesus Christ will come to Him and He will not cast them out. That is, the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ redeems and reconciles them to God.

In verse 39 Jesus Christ tells us that ALL the Father gives Him he will kept safe and He will raise up[that is resurrect] on the last day. One very crucial point to be made here: The belief that a person once saved can lose that salvation is a false doctrine and I believe it is a lie from the father of lies, Satan.

Now consider Verses 36 and 40. In Verse 36 we read:

36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

There are those who see Jesus Christ, and I believe this includes those who hear Jesus Christ, and yet they do not believe. Why?

In verse 40 we read:

40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Who are those who see the Son and believe on Him? It can only be those who are given by God the Father to God the Son. Belief is the consequence of God giving one to Jesus Christ, not the cause.

 

[BobRyan]

In verse 40 we read:

40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Who are those who see the Son and believe on Him? It can only be those who are given by God the Father to God the Son. Belief is the consequence of God giving one to Jesus Christ, not the cause.

Huge level of inference in that last statement.

Totally refuted by the fact that "they rejected God's purpose for themselves".

Or else when we see that they "reject God's purpose for themselves" it is because God forgot to do something????


According to Christ the drawing of God is TO ALL -- "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32

But just as He "CAME to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" John 1 - so also "HE draws ALL" but ALL do not choose to come to him.

Luke 7
30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John. 31 “To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? 32 They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’ 33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’


Matt 23
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. (NASB)

ARE these cases where Calvinism suggests that God has sabotaged his own will, his own purpose, his own work??

For as the "inference" goes in Calvinism - Belief is the consequence of God giving one to Jesus Christ, not the cause.

Or maybe God is "forgetting nothing" and in fact "Sabotaging none of His plans" because in fact the Arminian model declaring that the foreknowledge of God is the mechanism for "Giving" - Electing - and Calling, removes God from being the saboteur of his own Gospel plan.

This is about the point where we get the Calvinist response of the form "please don't bring up those texts that limit the inferences we are trying to draw out of John 6".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Huge level of inference in that last statement.

Not at all! Coming to Christ in John 6:37 as well as being given eternal life in John 17:2 is conditioned first upon being given to Christ by the Father. Jesus uses the FUTURE TENSE "shall come" and thus is the CONSEQUENCE of being given by the Father.

Second, the very act of coming is inclusive of faith and so one must first be given by the father in order to come as being given is the condition for coming and this is proven by the fact that "OF ALL" given NONE fail to come and NONE are lost that are given - Jn. 6:37,39.

Furthermore, none being lost "of all" that were given is not conditioned upon the obeidence of those being given but upon the obedience of Jesus Christ to this express will of the Father - Jn. 6:38-39. As it is this express will of the Father that Jesus came from heaven to secure by his own obedience as the Father makes Christ responsible for none being lost "of all' given.

Totally refuted by the fact that "they rejected God's purpose for themselves".

John 6:65 does not say that! It says nothing about about what they failed to do but what the Father failed to do - "it" (coming to me) was not "given" unto them. There is not one syllable in this verse about what they failed to do but only what the Father did not do "unto" them. He never drew them as verse 65 is merely a repitition of verse 44.

 

[OldRegular]

Not at all! Coming to Christ in John 6:37 as well as being given eternal life in John 17:2 is conditioned first upon being given to Christ by the Father. Jesus uses the FUTURE TENSE "shall come" and thus is the CONSEQUENCE of being given by the Father.

Second, the very act of coming is inclusive of faith and so one must first be given by the father in order to come as being given is the condition for coming and this is proven by the fact that "OF ALL" given NONE fail to come and NONE are lost that are given - Jn. 6:37,39.

Furthermore, none being lost "of all" that were given is not conditioned upon the obeidence of those being given but upon the obedience of Jesus Christ to this express will of the Father - Jn. 6:38-39. As it is this express will of the Father that Jesus came from heaven to secure by his own obedience as the Father makes Christ responsible for none being lost "of all' given.



John 6:65 does not say that! It says nothing about about what they failed to do but what the Father failed to do - "it" (coming to me) was not "given" unto them. There is not one syllable in this verse about what they failed to do but only what the Father did not do "unto" them. He never drew them as verse 65 is merely a repitition of verse 44.

Well said and thanks!

 

[Yeshua1]

Careful parsing and snipping - needed to support Calvinism.

John 6.

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

Notice He did not say "did I myself not CHOOSE one of you to BE a devil". Rather "Did I not choose you, the twelve - AND YET one of you is a devil"


"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1


66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.

Peter did no say 'you have caused us to believe you'

No, for jesus told Him that the father had revealed jesus as the Son to peter, so that was supernatural work by God, just as the Apsotles choosing was!