John 6:65 - what is "given"

[The Biblicist]

that invitation is being withheld at the time John 6 happened and isn't even employed until Christ is raised up,

That is an absurd argument! Jesus came preaching the gospel calling Jews to repentance immediately after being tested by Satan in the wilderness. What do you imagine Matthew 11:33-35 is if not an invitation. John 3;15-16 is certainly a declaration that any who believes will have eternal life. What do you think Lk. 13:3,6 is? What do you think the very parable of the wedding is? Even you admit it is an invitation. Jesus told the Pharisees that he came to call sinners to repentance. All four gospels are brim full of gospel calls to repent and beleive the gospel and the gospel was preached to ALL or else it could be said "but his own received him not."

Summary:
Fact: The gospel invitation being withheld from everyone except a few from Israel, and even they don't get it completely, when John 6 is recorded.

Fact: Christ concludes that no one can come unless drawn (invited/enabled -- Paul supports this view in Rom 10)

Fact: Christ doesn't send the gospel invitation until after he is raised up when the disciples are commissioned to go to every creature.

Fact: The same author who wrote John 6 wrote John 12 where he concludes that all men will be drawn to Christ after he is raised.

Conclusion: The powerful, life giving gospel is the means God uses to enable/draw men to himself, not merely inform those who have already been saved.

Nothing but pure spin based upon pure imagination. Why do you think the first four books of the NT are called "Gospels"????? They are brim full of the preachig of the gospel and calling Jews to repentance.

Of course the Father is the drawing power, but through WHAT MEANS DOES HE DRAW?

Your whole interpretation assumes that man is without any internal obstacles but merely needs an invitation. The words "no man can" necessarily infers universal inability more comprehensive than merely being solved by offering an external invitation. Even you own position interprets "hardening" to be more comprehensive than merely an external objective invitation can resolve. However, your limited application is repudiated by the comprehensive call of repentance found throughout the gospels from A to Z in the ministry of Christ.

Some secret, inward, irresistible working that scripture never once names or expounds upon?

That is you spin on scripture! The Bible speaks of it openly and repetitively to those who have eyes to see (Rom. 3:9-18; 7:14-25; 8:7-8; 1 Cor.1:26-31; 2:14; 1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Cor. 3:3-6; 4:6; Psa 14:2-3; etc.).

OR the GOSPEL, which is called 'the power of God unto Salvation' and is spoken of countless times as powerful, sharp, God breathed, inspired, given to us by God, etc???

You confuse God with the gospel. The gospel is merely words and comes in "word only" without God outbreathing His power through the gospel. You really don't believe there is any power in the gospel but rather in the will of man as your belief renders the gospel powerless to a resistant will. Hence, it is the will of man that empowers the gospel according to your view.

You seem to want to separate the Father from His chosen means.

Because the scriptures distinguish them. Because the power is in the PERSON of the Father and not in his chosen means. The chosen means have no power until the Father empowers them.

I am not following your argument. The gospel (Christ, cross, death, burial, resurrection, salvation even for Gentiles through faith, etc), is not FULFILLED and SENT until Christ is raised up. That is not my opinion, that is a FACT. Prior to this there is foreshadowing, mystery, prophecy, and such all pointing to Christ, but the gospel wasn't completed and sent until that point in history. That is significant considering how much scripture speaks of the gospels power and significance. You can't just dismiss it and pretend its used just to inform those who have already been saved when scripture never teaches that.

So you don't believe Acts 10:43? So you don't believe Acts 26:22-23 and the words "no other things"? So you don't believe Hebrews 4:2? So you don't believe Galatians 3:8? So you don't believe Jn. 14:6 and the words "no man" as you believe pre-pentecostal people as listed in Hebrews 11:6-41 could come to the Father (Heb. 11:6) by faith without Christ. So you believe there is salvation OUTSIDE of Christ and don't believe Acts 4:12? And the list goes on and on and on! You simply do not know what the gospel is or you would not make such silly statements and dare call them a "fact." What you say is not a "fact" but pure foolish.

The Gospel is summarized in 1 Cor. 15:3-4. The gospel is expanded in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The gospel was summarized in Gen. 3;15 prophetically and the progressively expanded throughout the Old testament as in Isaiah 53 until it was historically fulfilled and revealed in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John or the life and death of Christ.

There has never been another gospel, another savior , another way of salvaiton except the gospel of Christ (annointed/messiah) and it is always has been by faith looking forward to the promise to be fulfilled in the life and death of Christ or looking back as fulfilled - Rom. 3:25-26.

 

[Skandelon]

That is an absurd argument! Jesus came preaching the gospel calling Jews to repentance immediately after being tested by Satan in the wilderness. What do you imagine Matthew 11:33-35 is if not an invitation. John 3;15-16 is certainly a declaration that any who believes will have eternal life. What do you think Lk. 13:3,6 is? What do you think the very parable of the wedding is? Even you admit it is an invitation. Jesus told the Pharisees that he came to call sinners to repentance. All four gospels are brim full of gospel calls to repent and beleive the gospel and the gospel was preached to ALL or else it could be said "but his own received him not."

I don't think you are following what I'm saying brother.

Jesus specifically states, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables..."

and

"I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."

and

"many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name. But Jesus would not entrust himself to them..."

and

"Jesus sent him away at once with a strong warning: 'See that you don't tell this to anyone...'"​

Do you see a theme? But, of course Jesus was preaching elements of the gospel truth while on earth, no one is denying that. I'm saying that He didn't send the full message and appeal of reconciliation (cross/resurrection) to the WORLD until he had actually fulfilled it by dying and raising to life again.

"When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it. Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either. Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned"​

Understand my argument now?

 

[Iconoclast]

That is an absurd argument! Jesus came preaching the gospel calling Jews to repentance immediately after being tested by Satan in the wilderness. What do you imagine Matthew 11:33-35 is if not an invitation. John 3;15-16 is certainly a declaration that any who believes will have eternal life. What do you think Lk. 13:3,6 is? What do you think the very parable of the wedding is? Even you admit it is an invitation. Jesus told the Pharisees that he came to call sinners to repentance. All four gospels are brim full of gospel calls to repent and beleive the gospel and the gospel was preached to ALL or else it could be said "but his own received him not."



Nothing but pure spin based upon pure imagination. Why do you think the first four books of the NT are called "Gospels"????? They are brim full of the preachig of the gospel and calling Jews to repentance.







Your whole interpretation assumes that man is without any internal obstacles but merely needs an invitation. The words "no man can" necessarily infers universal inability more comprehensive than merely being solved by offering an external invitation. Even you own position interprets "hardening" to be more comprehensive than merely an external objective invitation can resolve. However, your limited application is repudiated by the comprehensive call of repentance found throughout the gospels from A to Z in the ministry of Christ.





That is you spin on scripture! The Bible speaks of it openly and repetitively to those who have eyes to see (Rom. 3:9-18; 7:14-25; 8:7-8; 1 Cor.1:26-31; 2:14; 1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Cor. 3:3-6; 4:6; Psa 14:2-3; etc.).




You confuse God with the gospel. The gospel is merely words and comes in "word only" without God outbreathing His power through the gospel. You really don't believe there is any power in the gospel but rather in the will of man as your belief renders the gospel powerless to a resistant will. Hence, it is the will of man that empowers the gospel according to your view.



Because the scriptures distinguish them. Because the power is in the PERSON of the Father and not in his chosen means. The chosen means have no power until the Father empowers them.




So you don't believe Acts 10:43? So you don't believe Acts 26:22-23 and the words "no other things"? So you don't believe Hebrews 4:2? So you don't believe Galatians 3:8? So you don't believe Jn. 14:6 and the words "no man" as you believe pre-pentecostal people as listed in Hebrews 11:6-41 could come to the Father (Heb. 11:6) by faith without Christ. So you believe there is salvation OUTSIDE of Christ and don't believe Acts 4:12? And the list goes on and on and on! You simply do not know what the gospel is or you would not make such silly statements and dare call them a "fact." What you say is not a "fact" but pure foolish.

The Gospel is summarized in 1 Cor. 15:3-4. The gospel is expanded in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The gospel was summarized in Gen. 3;15 prophetically and the progressively expanded throughout the Old testament as in Isaiah 53 until it was historically fulfilled and revealed in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John or the life and death of Christ.

There has never been another gospel, another savior , another way of salvaiton except the gospel of Christ (annointed/messiah) and it is always has been by faith looking forward to the promise to be fulfilled in the life and death of Christ or looking back as fulfilled - Rom. 3:25-26.

:thumbs::thumbs: You walked him through it in a clear fashion.Nice post:thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

Your whole interpretation assumes that man is without any internal obstacles but merely needs an invitation. The words "no man can" necessarily infers universal inability more comprehensive than merely being solved by offering an external invitation.

See, here marks the problem with your view of the gospel. You have reduced God's inspired truth to a mere 'external invitation.' It is GOD BREATHED and sharper than a two edged sword! It's not equal to a birthday invitation you get in the mail....the gospel IS THE POWER OF GOD unto Salvation, according to Paul.

Even you own position interprets "hardening" to be more comprehensive than merely an external objective invitation can resolve.

That is because it is a hardening TOWARD God's divine revelation after years of rejection, not an inborn inability to respond to God's revelation as you speculate.

That is you spin on scripture! The Bible speaks of it openly and repetitively to those who have eyes to see (Rom. 3:9-18; 7:14-25; 8:7-8; 1 Cor.1:26-31; 2:14; 1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Cor. 3:3-6; 4:6; Psa 14:2-3; etc.).

And that is the point. The Jews do not have eyes to see because they are being 'cut off' while the Gentiles are being 'grafted in.' Romans 11. You ignore that historical context and apply 'eyes to see' to your presumptions about man's inborn inabilities and irresistible calling.

You confuse God with the gospel. The gospel is merely words and comes in "word only" without God outbreathing His power through the gospel. You really don't believe there is any power in the gospel but rather in the will of man as your belief renders the gospel powerless to a resistant will. Hence, it is the will of man that empowers the gospel according to your view.

Jesus said, "The VERY WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU are spirit and life." So, I'll let you argue your point with Him.

The gospel in my view is an 'appeal to reconciliation' (as Paul calls it). Thus, it does always accomplish its purpose...which is to make an appeal so that man may respond to it. If the gospel's purpose is to just inform those who are already saved, then you might have a point, but scripture never teaches that.

Because the scriptures distinguish them. Because the power is in the PERSON of the Father and not in his chosen means. The chosen means have no power until the Father empowers them.

I agree, but I don't believe God's means ever 'come without power.' They are powerful because they are His. Truth is always truth and it's always powerful even if someone chooses to trade it in for lies or suppress it. Don't make the unbelief of a hearer the fault of the gospel, as if its not powerful enough! NO! It's totally the fault of the hearer who CHOOSES to suppress the truth. The unbeliever has not excuse, especially not, "My gospel didn't come with power like his did, so I just couldn't believe it." BALONEY! One could rightly say to the unbeliever, "You heard the truth and CHOSE to reject it, it's your fault and your's alone, not some lacking of power in God's chosen means."

 

[psalms109:31]

He said, "Go and tell this people: "'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'

Acts 20:21
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 3:
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

2 Corinthians 4

Present Weakness and Resurrection Life

4 Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”[Gen. 1:3] made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. 8 We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. 10 We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11 For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12 So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13 It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.”[Psalm 116:10 (see Septuagint)] Since we have that same spirit of[Or Spirit-given] faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14 because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15 All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.



They hear and see, but they have let the god of this age blind and deafen themselves because they don't learn they already know the truth because they are wise in their own eyes. Turn to Jesus first He is the only one who can make all men who are blind and all men who are deaf to see and to hear the real truth.

The hardest thing to do is to get them to admit all men are before they turned to Jesus. They never could until they turned to Jesus just the way they are blind and deaf and kept their eye on Him and away from themselves.