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John 8:43-44

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Pastor Larry, Oct 17, 2002.

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  1. shilo

    shilo New Member

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    I believe both Larry there in absolutly no contradiction in what I said.

    The Law was the 10 commandments..they were impossible to keep but they were a schoolmaster to bring us to Jesus..In which case the Lord Commanded man to believe on his son instead of the law. If it's impossible to keep that Commandment (To belive on His son) then all else is false.

    you couldn't figure that out?

    WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT?? What part of

    "the Law was our schoolmster to bring us unto Chirst that we might be justified by faith" Gal 3:24

    is the problem??

    That is not in anyway shape or form admitting total inability Larry it would be total inability if the Law couldn't be kept AND the people couldn't attone for their sin in some way but they had set fourth scarafices for the offences done. So while they couldn't keep the 10 commandments they could by their own free will and desire attone for their sin by killing a animal.

    I understand my opponent quite well..that is the reason I said you were being inconsistant.
     
    #21 shilo, Oct 19, 2002
  2. shilo

    shilo New Member

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    I have in no way been uncivil at all in my posts..I have not made personal attacks at all. you don't want personal attacks being made yet you attacked me..and not to me directly but to another person..

    And I have not told others what they believe..I have a working Knowlege of Calvinist and the doctrine and I know the word games as well as the ploys to mislead people. therefore I don't allow myself to be mislead by false staements.

    I have been commenting on the subject at hand as well as responding to your resoponses to me. Obviously some things have not been answerd. If you thought they had.. you shouldn't have brought up a subject that would bring things out again.
     
    #22 shilo, Oct 19, 2002
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    [/qb]No. I didn't follow your argument to see how it refuted what I said. You misused verses and expected me to respond as if it were a legitimate refutation. Sorry.

    As for your exegesis, it is weak. I was simply making a tongue in cheek comment to Chappie, with whom I have had this discussion before that your understanding of the passage was very limited as to what it said.

    I ignored nothing that I know of. I make a practice of not doing that. If you feel I did, please explain where and how

    The content of the faith is the revelation that God has from man at any particular time. In each dispensation, there was new content that man was required to respond in faith to. His salvation was by faith in that revelation.

    I apologize that it came across that way. I should have chosen different words to communicate my point. Will you forgive my pooir choice to say that as I did? As for attacks, you called me ignorant (not even implying), said I was lying (when I wasn't). Your demeanor is not one of grace. I realize we all struggle with that here and with the absence of the personal interaction, it becomes difficult to see the kindness. We need to go out of our way to work on our wording as well as to be less sensitive.

    Theological words need to be defined theologically, not colloquially. Regeneration in theology is the impartation of spiritual life to the spiritually dead. If one is to respond to God, they must have spiritual life. In the OT, spiritual life was evident from the prayers, spiritual disciplines, repentance, etc. It would be hard to deny the existence of spiritual life in the OT. In appealing to a dictionary, you have appealed to a auto parts store for information about your computer. It doesn't work. Use a theological dictionary, a good systematic theology, or something of that nature for your definition of regeneration and other spiritual terms.
     
    #23 Pastor Larry, Oct 19, 2002
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    You believe that "if it is not in the power to keep it ... then it is useless" and "it is impossible to keep it"???? These are mutually exclusive contradictory statements. They violate the law of non-contradiction. Either that or you have just said that the 10 commandments are useless.

    I agree that the Law (all 600+ of them) was a schoolmaster, until the time when Christ came. That is not at issue, though I suspect you and I understand that a bit differently. But it seems you are making a distinction about laws: It is impossible to keep some but not all. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If man is able to keep one law, then he is able to keep them all, it seems to me.

    This is the type of reponse I am warning you about. I understand it perfectly. I am not sure that you share my understanding or the implications of what you have said about it.

    You are the one who said they couldn't keep the Law. In so doing, you have admitted in principle to total inability. You are the one that said that, not me. I didn't even accuse you of saying it. It is in black and white for.

    It is interesting how many people understand what we believe and yet do not address what we believe. I don't think you do understand. At least you have given no evidence of that here.
     
    #24 Pastor Larry, Oct 19, 2002
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    As moderator, whose view counts, I am going to disagree. As of now, I am simply asking you to consider it and change it. I have apologized to you for my comments and asked for your forgiveness. They were inappropriate as I admitted. Let's do better.

    You told me that I really didn't believe "whosoever will may come." Whether I believe it or not, you told me what I believed. Your "working knowledge" is inadequate. Trust me when I tell you that. I know what I believe. As I have said before, I am not an authority on much, but i am an authority on what I believe. And I have a good handle on what Calvinism believes. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to your working knowledge by telling us what resources you have picked your information up from. Taht would give us a good idea of your working knowledge.

    They haven't been answered. That is why i brought it up. I am asking why "cannot" does not really mean "cannot"?
     
    #25 Pastor Larry, Oct 19, 2002
  6. shilo

    shilo New Member

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    pastor Larry I will respect you about my posts and will word my posts accordingly.

    As far as I know I didn't go into great detail over any of the veses I posted. I simply listed the verses that disagreed with your theory of Inability.

    Yours is as well in my opinion

    exactly right..which means that people were not saved the same way in each dispensation. which throws a hole in your theology. for In the old testament man wasn't under the working of the Holy Spirit. unregenerate man was able to have faith and please God without the Holy Spirit having to first quicken him.

    Regeneration is an everyday word that any person can find the meaning to just from picking up a dictionary.

    can man keep all the 10 commandments yes or no? Were the 10 commandments the schoolmaster?

    They as far as I know are the only ones that man can't keep. the commandment of God was to believe on his son which man can keep because it is said that Jesus was the propiation of our sins BUT NOT OURS ONLY but for the sin of the whole world.(1 Jn.2:2).which would line up with God willing that all men be saved (Tim 2:4) and lines up with all the other verses..So since it's God's will and Christ died for All men..all men have the ability to come to Christ for salvation. to keep the commandment to believe on his son.

    No what I have admitted is man can't keep the ten commandments not that he has a total inability as defined by Calvinist. re read my previous statement again.
     
    #26 shilo, Oct 19, 2002
  7. shilo

    shilo New Member

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    i said that because Calvinist believe in unconditional election as well as limited atonement which is not in agreeance of "whosoever will" Whosoever is Anyone witout exception can freely come to Christ for salvation is that what you belive?

    also I told you were i got my working knowlede of calvinist..from the Dort Cannon, From Calvin, From pink, From Boettner..from the Westminister Confessions of Faith..these are my resorces..

    no this is what you said..

    my entire argument was why "cannot" is not inability as you would define it. you said Jesus meant "Total Inability" instead of "Cannot"..yet by your own words you said it was personal sin that was keeping the people from hearing Jesus. that being so..personl sin can be taken care of and belief is still possible as Jesus himself said "IF"(8:24) meaning they could believe if they wanted to. taht isn't Total inability.

    perhaps you should go through my posts agin as i have gone through all of this already.
     
    #27 shilo, Oct 19, 2002
  8. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    No it isn't. It's "anyone who wants to."
     
    #28 russell55, Oct 19, 2002
  9. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    These verses do not show an inability on the part of unsaved man, But rather the inability on the part of Highly educated, wise men. Jesus was addressing the Pharisees, who were the "upper crust of Society".

    The unsaved can hear the word and come to belief in Jesus regardless of their station in life. These wise Pharisees could not set aside their position in life to follow Jesus. They were self styled "important people" who governed the underlings.

    [ October 20, 2002, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]
     
    #29 Yelsew, Oct 20, 2002
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