John Calvin’s errant views

[Van]

2 Thessalonians 2:13

It is not saying "He chose you for salvation BECAUSE of sanctification and faith", but "through" or, "By using" sanctification and faith. Paul never uses "en" to denote cause.

Yes, you are correct, Paul is not saying God chose you because of sanctification and faith. And nobody suggested he did.

Now if you actually want to address what was said, try again.

"en = dative (sanctification) describes the means of God making the choice and answers the question "how." Thus it is adverbial and applies to the verb chose.

"en + dative (faith) describes the basis of God making the choice and answers the question "why." Thus it is adverbial and applies to the verb chose.

Next you make a claim that Paul never used the construction "en + dative" to show the basis of an action. Try Ephesians 6:1 why Paul indicates the basis for obeying parents is that we are to obey our parents as we would obey the Lord, with the phrase "in the Lord."

 

[Aaron]

Have you studied the full of the institutes or just 3 chapters in Book 3?

Did he even study that?

 

[Van]

Yet another post questioning my qualifications. My views are posted in the OP, does anyone having anything other than what boils down to this paraphrase: "taint so and you are a twit for saying so."

Trust me, I have received that message loud and clear.

 

[Jarthur001]

Yet another post questioning my qualifications.

My views are posted in the OP, does anyone having anything other than what boils down to this paraphrase: "taint so and you are a twit for saying so."

Trust me, I have received that message loud and clear.

Personal integrity must be considered when a statement is made that has never been supported before. It is more than fair to ask if you have read the full book you are quoting from, being that your statement is so far out in left field.

A simple

yes i have....

or...

No I have not

will do.

Then we could leave this behind us, and you can stop your crying that people are picking on you.

I have not asked myself, so let me be the 3rd that has ask....

Have you read all of Calvin's book?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Did he even study that?

His (Van's) copy is abridged, in other words shortened.

If we Calvinists are Robots then.....my sensors indicate an intruder is present.....Danger Danger Will Robinson.

 

[Van]

Asked and answered. Now back to the actual topic. Anyone agree with John Calvin's assertions that I presented as mistaken views?

 

[Van]

In part 7 of Chapter 21, Calvin asserts that whom God dooms to destruction are shut off from eternal life, by God’s perfect but incomprehensible judgment. (False. God’s Word explains that all deserve destruction, we are doomed from conception because of Adam, and we also appoint ourselves to destruction by our deeds including, if given the opportunity, when we reject Christ. Those that never had an opportunity of accept the gospel will receive perfect justice, being judged based on the Law written on their heart (Romans 1:20; 2:12-16).

 

[Jarthur001]

Asked and answered. Now back to the actual topic. Anyone agree with John Calvin's assertions that I presented as mistaken views?

yes you have....you said..."so I have not studied the entire work."

This may also answer why you post misleading statements.

This may also tell us why very little is said about your statements proper, but more toward your honesty

Which tells me a lot about why you are crying that people are picking on you.

Which tells me this thread has no real meaning..

and this is my last post on it..

Have a good day van.

God is love.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You are right, John Calvin is not the issue, nor are the doctrines represented by the TULI, what is at issue is coming to a unified understanding the gospel of Christ and engaging in a more effective ministry for Christ.

Yes Van I believe that you want unity & I pray for it as well. I'm certain that many of the saints also pray for it but lets look at realities: Augustine who we Calvinists believed formulated from scripture the doctrines of predestination & Radical Depravity died August 28, year 430 (aged 75). I will go back that far to prove the point that the year 430 is an very long time for differences to be still in existence but never the less here we are with differences of opinion. If you feel that by critiquing Calvin, Augustine, Whitefield, Luther, Bunyan Edwards, Boyce, The Puritans, The Covenanters, The Presbyterians, the Reformed, The Calvinists, The Particular & Reformed Baptists your going to change our opinion then your just fooling yourself. I think that if we as the Reformed, The Orthodox, The Calvinist collectively should also be aware that its not going to be a cake walk changing your minds either. The most we can hope for is in our brotherhood of common belief that Christ is our Lord & Savior.

So as a sound Calvinist I will advise you to relax & pray about it, God is Sovereign & he will work it out in His time-frame, not ours.

Blessing

 

[Van]

I believe a person who accepted Calvinism can learn what the Bible actually says and change their mind, just like folks who post here say they did. I started out trying to defend Calvinism, but soon realized it was a no go. How come not you?

 

[Jerome]

From a commentary on Calvin's catechism (for those capable of grasping the concept the Calvin would address seeming injustice in his scheme):

[Double predestination] appears unjust and arbitrary and would seem to make people unresponsible for their decisions. Calvin recognizes these difficulties and himself raises the question, “Why should the Lord deem the former [the predestined] worthy of his mercy, but exercise his severe judgment on the latter?" He answers simply, “Let us leave the cause in his hand, for he has for the best of reasons willed to hide it from us" (sec. 13). He also warns his readers against trying to fathom the hidden decree of God. We should instead recognize the paucity of our wisdom and marvel at God's "unsearchable judgments" (Rom. 11:33). Calvin would remind us of the words of the apostle Paul: “Who are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, ‘Why have you made me like this?" (Rom. 9:20; cf. Inst. lll.23,1,4,5, where Calvin quotes this and similar texts). In any case, we should not accuse God of being unjust. Rather, "let us acknowledge among ourselves that this dispensation of the Lord, although hidden to us, is nonetheless just and holy" (sec. 13).

 

[Van]

Thanks for so clearly showing John Calvins view, that the reason was not given in scripture and that we should accept it without understanding. But the reality is scripture does answer the question, everyone has fallen short, we were made sinners as a consequence of Adam's sin, therefore we all will receive perfect justice, or mercy if we trust in Christ.

The fundamental flaw was believing that the election in Him before the foundation of the world referred to our individual election. But when viewed as a corporate election, those the Redeemer would redeem, then everything falls into place. We are saved by grace through faith rather than saved by election and given faith. God credits our faith and places us in Christ where we are regenerated, made alive together with Christ. Not regenerated before we are in Christ.

The T is wrong, men of the flesh can understand the gospel, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.
The U is wrong, we are chosen during our lifetime (2 Thessalonians 2:13) based on faith in the truth as determined by God, Romans 4:4-5.
The L is wrong, Christ died as a ransom for all, and Christ is the propritation or means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.
And the I is wrong, men who were entering heaven we blocked by false teaching, Matthew 23:13.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe a person who accepted Calvinism can learn what the Bible actually says and change their mind, just like folks who post here say they did. I started out trying to defend Calvinism, but soon realized it was a no go. How come not you?

I believe it to be Biblical truth. I was an Non Calvinist. I took another look & I tried matching up my salvation experience with the views of Non-Calvinist & it was like trying to put a square peg in a round whole....it didn't fit & I wanted it to so I got a hammer & hit it a few times.

Why would a very sinful man like me (& I'm not exaggerating my love for sin & my wallowing in it) ever want to do the right thing .... that was for suckers. Only the hound of heaven kept attacking me & He somehow flipped some switch in me. George Whitefield's "The Method Of Grace" could of been partially responsible. When he (Whitefield) asked me if I ever did truly believe in Christ, I admitted I had not. I was totally apart from Him. You should read the whole sermon, In fact I beg you to do it in fact (But you will need at least 15 min to take it all in).

Then the pieces began to fit. The only one I still have (had I should say) trouble with is Limited Atonement. I don't want anyone going to hell. But here is the thing. It is Orthodox belief that God is Sovereign. Totally Sovereign....He is the potter & we are the pottery. Now if you have control issues then you will fight that. Its called handing it all over.....its called God's in control & not you...... Its called peace. You should try it some time. Its the peace that only God can provide. I am now content in my obedience to my Lord, happy I'm a changed & I glorify that I have been given a new life (And Eternal Assurance of Heaven). All I really want to do now is Praise God. In fact my doxology is the good ole "Praise God from whom all blessings flow...." Im sure you know the rest. :godisgood:

Blessings & enjoy the remainder of the evening
Steve D

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

From a commentary on Calvin's catechism (for those capable of grasping the concept the Calvin would address seeming injustice in his scheme):

Yes, Yes thats it.....Isnt it wonderful! Praise God. God is in his place & we are in ours! :love2:

 

[Van]

Both you and I were sinners, and we knew we were sinners, and we wanted to live for Christ.

Can you tell me specifically what did not match up with scripture that reflects the non-Calvinism view. I just posted 4 scriptures that demonstrate the TULI are false doctrines.

You say God is sovereign but you seem to define that to mean exhaustive determinism. You seem to be saying God could not allow his creation to make autonomous decisions that alter the outcome of their life. But Deuteronomy 30:19-20 says just that.

And then you say if people do not accept your view then they have control issues, attributing character flaws to those who hold other views.

Your life in Christ is not about you enjoying peace in isolation, it is about sharing the suffering of Christ as you beg others to be reconciled as an ambassador of Christ.

 

[Rippon]

From a commentary on Calvin's catechism (for those capable of grasping the concept the Calvin would address seeming injustice in his scheme):

Perfectly biblical. Thanks for sharing that Jerome!

 

[Rippon]

Then the pieces began to fit... It is Orthodox belief that God is Sovereign. Totally Sovereign....He is the potter & we are the pottery. Now if you have control issues then you will fight that. Its called handing it all over.....its called God's in control & not you...... Its called peace. You should try it some time. Its the peace that only God can provide. I am now content in my obedience to my Lord, happy I'm a changed & I glorify that I have been given a new life (And Eternal Assurance of Heaven). All I really want to do now is Praise God. In fact my doxology is the good ole "Praise God from whom all blessings flow...." Im sure you know the rest. :godisgood:

Wonderful! Thanks for sharing those words Steve. "Handing it all over." Indeed,it all comes down to that.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The fundamental flaw was believing that the election in Him before the foundation of the world referred to our individual election. But when viewed as a corporate election, those the Redeemer would redeem, then everything falls into place. We are saved by grace through faith rather than saved by election and given faith. God credits our faith and places us in Christ where we are regenerated, made alive together with Christ. Not regenerated before we are in Christ.

Again you talk gibberish. Take a look at eph. 2:8-9

We Calvinists believe that apart from Grace no one is saved

Agustine had to condemn Pelagius @ the Synod of Carthage in 418 for disputing it

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Have you ever heard "non posse non peccare"?

 

[Van]

We Calvinists believe that apart of Grace no one is saved." I believe that as well. So why did you bring it up as if it was a point of difference?

And suggesing my view is inconsistent with Augustine, the father of the dark ages, is correct. But I address his errant views in another thread.

You said to take a look at Ephesians 2:8-9 but did not indicate where you thought my views differed from scripture. In order for us to reach a common understanding we must talk in specifics without guilt by association suggestions such as associating my views with Pelagius. Without specifics your words simply disparage me. I will accept body blows for Christ, as every other Christian would, so why lob them?