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John Calvin - Jesus Died For the Whole Human Race

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Martin Andrews, Apr 2, 2017.

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  1. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Utilyan, is faith something you create in order to choose God or is it a gift from God?
    I say that faith is a gift from God.

    You declare that I don't know God, but is that true or are you just accusing?

    2 Peter 1:1-4
    [1]This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ.I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior.
    [2]May God give you more and more grace and peace as you grow in your knowledge of God and Jesus our Lord.
    [3]By his divine power, God has given us everything we need for living a godly life. We have received all of this by coming to know him, the one who called us to himself by means of his marvelous glory and excellence.
    [4]And because of his glory and excellence, he has given us great and precious promises. These are the promises that enable you to share his divine nature and escape the world’s corruption caused by human desires.

    2 Peter 2:1-3
    [1]But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves.
    [2]Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered.
    [3]In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.
     
    #21 MennoSota, Apr 5, 2017
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  2. Martin Andrews

    Martin Andrews Member
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    I don't care what Piper, or Sproul or MacArthur or any other Calvinist has to say. I am only interested in the Holy Bible. You people cannot deal with Scripture in honesty because you know it does not support the rubbish you hold to
     
    #22 Martin Andrews, Apr 5, 2017
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  3. Martin Andrews

    Martin Andrews Member
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    Mr Cassidy, Why don't you, like the other Calvinists who are more interested in some unbiblical nonsense, answer what I write. PROVE to be from Scripture, 1, that Jesus did NOT include Judas when He said that He shed His blood for YOU, which included Him. 2. WHY would Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper with Judas in the room and partaking of it, IF Judas was not included in His death? I am not one bit interested in ANY arguments that do not deal with Scripture only. Now, if you can answer this, I will hear, or else please do NOT respond to my comments with silly one-liners!

    Nor am I interested in your warped Calvinism about "Jesus died for all", sufficient of all, and efficient for some, NONSENSE which is NOT taught in Scripture. I mean, we complain about the Jehovah's Witnesses of being unbiblical, Calvinists are NO better!
     
    #23 Martin Andrews, Apr 5, 2017
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  4. Martin Andrews

    Martin Andrews Member
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    Either deal with the argument if you can, or don't, but please stop twisting the comments. If you guys were honest, you would have to admit that 2 Peter 2:1, does teach very clearly that Jesus died for those who will end up in hell, as Judas did. But of course, Calvinism is only a "theory" that is NOT based on Scripture!
     
    #24 Martin Andrews, Apr 5, 2017
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  5. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Here is 2 Peter 2:1

    But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves.

    Nothing about hell in the verse.
    You are working extremely hard to force your presupposition onto the verse and neglect context completely. Do you realize that you are doing the same thing Muslims do with the Bible and the Quran?

    Here's a true story.

    My dad came to faith listening to a pastor. The pastor later began to teach that a Christian could do anything they wanted because God's grace was greater than their sin. He started swearing from the pulpit and began to have multiple sexual affairs with women in the congregation. He promoted freedom do as you please to his congregation.

    On a night in February he was sleeping in his basement when his house caught on fire. Everyone escaped except him. He was trapped in the basement and the house burned down on top of him.

    Would you call that sudden destruction to a pastor who at one time taught the truth?
     
    #25 MennoSota, Apr 5, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
  6. Martin Andrews

    Martin Andrews Member
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    No, this is NOT in the Bible, and really HERESY!
     
    #26 Martin Andrews, Apr 5, 2017
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  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Jesus died for all. Period. End of discussion.
    2 Corinthians 5:15 He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again.

    Uh, read it again. Judas left.

    You are not interested in any arguments that deal with Scripture. I have posted the same verse over and over again and you just ignore it.

    Here it is again, 2 Corinthians 5:15 He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again.
     
    #27 TCassidy, Apr 5, 2017
  8. Martin Andrews

    Martin Andrews Member
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    You say Judas left, this is what the Bible actually says:

    "Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for YOU.But behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table. And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed! "

    Read it again and stop twisting what the Bible says!
     
    #28 Martin Andrews, Apr 5, 2017
  9. Martin Andrews

    Martin Andrews Member
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    At least Matthew Henry is an honest Calvinist, where he clearly says:

    "it seems plain that Judas did receive the Lord's supper, did eat of that bread and drink of that cup"
     
    #29 Martin Andrews, Apr 5, 2017
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So Matthew Henry can't read either?

    And it is funny that you quote Matthew Henry instead of the bible, which you said I had to do. LOL! ROFLOL!

    Here, try some bible. A comparison of the gospel accounts shows that Matthew and Mark placed Judas’ exposure and departure before the institution of the Lord’s Supper.

    Mat 26:21 As they were eating, he said, “Most certainly I tell you that one of you will betray me.”
    22 They were exceedingly sorrowful, and each began to ask him, “It isn’t me, is it, Lord?”
    He answered, “He who dipped his hand with me in the dish, the same will betray me.
    24 The Son of Man goes, even as it is written of him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would be better for that man if he had not been born.”
    25 Judas, who betrayed him, answered, “It isn’t me, is it, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You said it.”

    Mark 14:18 As they sat and were eating, Jesus said, “Most certainly I tell you, one of you will betray me—he who eats with me.”
    19 They began to be sorrowful, and to ask him one by one, “Surely not I?” And another said, “Surely not I?”
    20 He answered them, “It is one of the twelve, he who dips with me in the dish.
    21 For the Son of Man goes, even as it is written about him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would be better for that man if he had not been born.”

    John 13:30 Therefore having received that morsel, he went out immediately. It was night.
     
    #30 TCassidy, Apr 5, 2017
  11. Martin Andrews

    Martin Andrews Member
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    Are you saying that Luke in his Gospel is mistaken by writing that Jesus clearly says that Judas was there for the Lord's Supper, and that he left AFTER he had partaken? SHAME ON YOU!
     
    #31 Martin Andrews, Apr 5, 2017
  12. Martin Andrews

    Martin Andrews Member
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    Luke 19:11, "Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately", Does " immediately" always mean that?
     
    #32 Martin Andrews, Apr 5, 2017
  13. Martin Andrews

    Martin Andrews Member
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    "παραχρῆμα
    “immediately” : P Par 46.18 (B.C. 152) (= UPZ i. p. 338) παραχρῆμα παρέσομαι πρός σε, and P Fay 92.18 (A.D. 126) παραχρῆμα διὰ χιρός, “directly from hand to hand” (Edd.), a common phrase in monetary transactions, see further Berger Strafklauseln p. 78 f. The word is associated with delay for a month in such a passage as P Amh II. 49.5 (B.C. 108) ἀποτεισάτωσαν ἐν τῷ ἐχομένωι μην<ὶ> ἡμιόλιον παραχρῆμα. On the other hand notice the emphatic εὐθὺς κ̣αὶ παραχρῆμα in P Strass I. 35.17 (iv/v A.D.) : cf. Dalman Words, p. 28 f. " (Moulton & Milligan)
     
    #33 Martin Andrews, Apr 5, 2017
  14. Martin Andrews

    Martin Andrews Member
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    Mr Cassidy, can you please show me from the 3 Gospel accounts on the Lord's Super you quote, where it says that Judas did not partake of the cup representing Jesus' blood shed for HIM?
     
    #34 Martin Andrews, Apr 5, 2017
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Luke doesn't say that. Read it again.

    You like commentaries? Try Barnes, one of the very best bible expositors:

    Mat_26:23
    He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish - The Jews, at the observance of this ordinance, used a bitter sauce, made of bunches of raisins, mixed with vinegar and other seasoning of the like kind, which they said represented the clay which their fathers were compelled to use in Egypt in making brick, thus reminding them of their bitter bondage there.
    This was probably the dish to which reference is made here. It is not improbable that Judas reclined near to our Saviour at the feast, and by his saying it was one that dipped “with him” in the dish, he meant one that was near to him, designating him more particularly than he had done before. John adds (Joh_13:23-30; see the notes at that place), that “there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples whom Jesus loved” - referring to himself; that Simon Peter beckoned to him to ask Jesus more particularly who it was; that Jesus signified who it was by giving “Judas a sop” - that is, a piece of “bread” or “meat” dipped in the thick sauce; and that Judas, having received it, went out to accomplish his wicked design of betraying him. Judas was not, therefore, present at the institution of the Lord’s Supper.

    Just believe your bible. John says Judas left immediately after the sop. God's word is never wrong. Trust it. It will never lead you astray.

    Now, as to your confusion over the word "is." I have bad news. The word "is" is not in the Greek.

    πλην ιδου η χειρ του παραδιδοντος με μετ εμου επι της τραπεζης.

    "Moreover, perceive, the hand of the one giving me up (was or had been) with me on this table."
     
    #35 TCassidy, Apr 5, 2017
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Immediately after receiving the sop, and before Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper, Judas left. Just read the account in the Gospel of John. It could not be any clearer.
     
    #36 TCassidy, Apr 5, 2017
  17. Martin Andrews

    Martin Andrews Member
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    Mr Cassidy, you should not quote Greek if you don't really understand what it says. the Greek word, "παραδιδοντος", is best described by Dr A T Robertson, "That betrayeth (tou paradidontos). Present active participle, actually engaged in doing it. The hand of Judas was resting on the table at the moment. It should be noted that Luke narrates the institution of the Lord's Supper before the exposure of Judas as the traitor while Mark and Matthew reverse this order."
     
    #37 Martin Andrews, Apr 5, 2017
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Died for all, but only effectual in being applied towards His own!
     
    #38 Yeshua1, Apr 5, 2017
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus died for them, but not in the sense that God intend to have His death propiation and atoning for their personal sins, or else would not be in Hell!
     
    #39 Yeshua1, Apr 5, 2017
  20. Martin Andrews

    Martin Andrews Member
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    WHY don't you people PLEASE STOP CORRUPTING the Word of God? Where in the entire Holy Bible do we read this RUBBISH? Jesus died for the "human race", and then He did not in the same way for ALL? This is man made UTTER NONSENSE! Stick to what the Bible teaches and NOT personal theology!
     
    #40 Martin Andrews, Apr 5, 2017
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