John Calvin's Lip Service

[McCree79]

The Munster Rebellion was not caused by the Anabaptist, per se.
One must remember that the word "anabaptist" simply means "to baptize again," and so many fit under that umbrella. The vast majority of them were pacifists. Even the Amish of today are pacifists who historians say are more in line with the direct descendants of the Anabaptists.
Revisionist history is not the best thing to post.

I didn't know charismatic meant rebellion? Nice try on changing the topic.

Let me answer for you since you can't....just seem to dodge the heresy of certain Anabaptist secs. There was charismatic Anabaptists in the 1500's. There was the practice of Antinomianism in some, there was Anabaptists in Australia who kidnapped pagan children, there was the denying of the Trinity on all Anabaptists I know of from the 1500's. They like the rest of the Church in the 1500-1600, struggled with biblical and social issues. They were a product of their time. Calvin, Anabaptists, Luther, King James, Geneva Civil Counsel and all other governments were product of their time and we can't judge them with our American eyes. Our country and time allows us certain advantages that they didn't have. I am not attacking the past mistakes of Anabaptists. I am demonstrating that the 1500's were chaos for all. All did things that they would not do if raised in America today. Likewise, we would not do as we did now, if we were a poor Anabaptist farm in Germany, of live in Geneva. Our environment would have shaped us differently. To think it wouldn't, would be to give ourselves too much credit.

 

[DHK]

I didn't know charismatic meant rebellion? Nice try on changing the topic.

It is not a change of topic. You are ignorant of both the beliefs and history of the Anabaptists. Let's review.

In the last post:
1. It is needless to say that Munzer was utterly defeated, and not less than five thousand peasants lost their lives on that day, May 15, 1525.

2. But your claim was:
Zurich in 1525, at Munster in 1534 and at Amsterdam in 1535.....charismatic Anabaptists.

3. In the Anabaptist statement of Faith was written:

The Bible is a closed canon of holy books, i.e no more additions to the Bible are allowed because there are no more Apostles and Prophets in the Church. Only Apostles and Prophets have the authority to add new books to the Canon of the Bible. There are no new revelations or prophecies, and all supernatural Charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are no more present in the children of God. The Charismatic gifts were only present during the Apostolic period of Church (the 1st. century). The Bible is our necessary and sufficient supreme authority in our lives.

--They denied the Charismatic gifts, or did you miss that post.

Now you have made an unsubstantiated post (in fact two of them) which you cannot prove.
--that the Anabaptists are heretics and Charismaitc.
--that they were involved in the Munster rebellion.

You have been proven wrong. Why post lies? Who owes who the apology?

 

[McCree79]

It is not a change of topic. You are ignorant of both the beliefs and history of the Anabaptists. Let's review.

In the last post:
1. It is needless to say that Munzer was utterly defeated, and not less than five thousand peasants lost their lives on that day, May 15, 1525.

2. But your claim was:
Zurich in 1525, at Munster in 1534 and at Amsterdam in 1535.....charismatic Anabaptists.

3. In the Anabaptist statement of Faith was written:

--They denied the Charismatic gifts, or did you miss that post.

Now you have made an unsubstantiated post (in fact two of them) which you cannot prove.
--that the Anabaptists are heretics and Charismaitc.
--that they were involved in the Munster rebellion.

You have been proven wrong. Why post lies? Who owes who the apology?

It was a change. We talked Charismatic, and you say....they didn't start that war.....why lie. You changed the subject.

What confession of faith was this? The Swiss one from 1525? I'm sure that they ran that right over to Germany and England.

Anabaptists had a charismatic movement I'm 3 areas. All the confessions you post, won't change that.

SBC passed a resolution of no female pastors, but guess what? There is female pastors in the SBC. The resolution is non binding, SBC churches ordain Autonomously. Confessions and resolutions aren't always followed.

Quit lying about the non existence of Charismatic Anabaptists

 

[DHK]

It was a change. We talked Charismatic, and you say....they didn't start that war.....why lie. You changed the subject.

What confession of faith was this? The Swiss one from 1525? I'm sure that they ran that right over to Germany and England.

Anabaptists had a charismatic movement I'm 3 areas. All the confessions you post, won't change that.

SBC passed a resolution of no female pastors, but guess what? There is female pastors in the SBC. The resolution is non binding, SBC churches ordain Autonomously. Confessions and resolutions aren't always followed.

Quit lying about the non existence of Charismatic Anabaptists

Posting a lie doesn't make it the truth.
You haven't documented one thing you have asserted. No one has any reason to believe you. I have given sources for my statements. You can verify the information I have posted. It is reliable.

 

[McCree79]

Posting a lie doesn't make it the truth.
You haven't documented one thing you have asserted. No one has any reason to believe you. I have given sources for my statements. You can verify the information I have posted. It is reliable.

I'm sorry. I thought you knew how to use google.
https://holyspiritactivism.wordpres...ismatic-theology-among-the-early-anabaptists/

 

[McCree79]

...and that post is from an Anabaptist who even admits to Holy Spirit super natural gifts are claimed for the dates I have you.

 

[Rippon]

Philip Schaff :

"Taking into account all his failings, he must be reckoned as one of the greatest and best of men whom God raised up in the history of Christianity."

William Cunningham :

"Calvin is the man who, next to St. Paul, has done most good to mankind."

Richard Baxter :

"I know no man, since the Apostles' days whom I value and honor more than Calvin, and whose judgment in all things, one with the other, I more esteem and come nearer to."

 

[DHK]

I'm sorry. I thought you knew how to use google.
https://holyspiritactivism.wordpres...ismatic-theology-among-the-early-anabaptists/

From your site:

Wow, I’m so encouraged to hear that Steven! God bless you and the Vineyard Justice Network

(a comment)

About this site:

Hello there! My name is Micael. I live in Uppsala, Sweden, where I study theology as well as peace and development studies, and I belong to a small charismatic house church called Mosaik. I am fully convinced that activism for peace and justice should be performed in the power of the Holy Spirit. Miracles, healing, prophecy and evangelism should be combined with peacemaking, economic equality, simplicity and care for the environment, just as in the biblical church.

I was saved in 2006 after discovering that the Bible promises eternal life and after seeing visions of Jesus. I started to pray and read the Bible, and I was fascinated by how the liturgy of my church – that previously was nothing but a bunch of pointless, boring rituals for me – had ancient roots filled with holy meaning.

Yet, people weren’t prophesying or casting out demons very much in my Lutheran church, so I started to attend some charismatic and Pentecostal churches. As I grew deeper into the charismatic movement, I saw some differences between church and Scripture here as well though, specifically when it came to peace and justice.

https://holyspiritactivism.wordpress.com/about/

IOW, it is not a reliable site. It is a Charismatic site claiming a connection to the Anabaptists. The Charismatics only go a few years back. They don't go back that far.
The Pentecostal movement started in 1901 and the Charismatic movement after that. This guy is full of malarkey. We have had Charismatics on this board before trying to prove their existence before the 20th century. They can't. They didn't exist.
You are making this stuff up, or going to sites that are. Pentecostalism originated at the beginning of the 20th century and unknown among Christianity before then. They ceased at the end of the first century. The spiritual gifts ceased at the end of the first century.

 

[Rippon]

B.B. Warfield :

"Here we have the secret of Calvin's greatness and the source of his strenth unveiled to us. No man ever had a profounder sense of God than he; no man ever more unreservedly surrendered himself to the Divine direction."

James Boice :

"Calvin had no weapon but the Bible. He preached from the Bible every day, and under the power of that preaching the city began to be transformed. As the people of Geneva acquired knowledge of God's Word and were changed by it, the city became, as John Knox called it later, a New Jeruslem from which the gospel spread to the rest of Europe, England and the New World."

John Piper :

" This was always the root issue for Calvin. How might be best to show forth for all of Geneva and all of history the Divine Majesty? He answered with a life of continuous expository preaching. There would be no better way to manifest the full range of the glories of God and the majesty of his being than to spread out the full range of God's Word in the context of the pastoral ministry of shepherding care."

 

[McCree79]

From your site:
(a comment)

About this site:

https://holyspiritactivism.wordpress.com/about/

IOW, it is not a reliable site. It is a Charismatic site claiming a connection to the Anabaptists. The Charismatics only go a few years back. They don't go back that far.
The Pentecostal movement started in 1901 and the Charismatic movement after that. This guy is full of malarkey. We have had Charismatics on this board before trying to prove their existence before the 20th century. They can't. They didn't exist.
You are making this stuff up, or going to sites that are. Pentecostalism originated at the beginning of the 20th century and unknown among Christianity before then. They ceased at the end of the first century. The spiritual gifts ceased at the end of the first century.

DHK,

There are plenty of sites, plenty of Anabaptists, plenty of historians, that acknowledge early Charismatic movement's.

The Anabaptists, along with everyone else in the 1500's, had to work through issues.


http://www.anabaptistnetwork.com/book/export/html/173

 

[McCree79]

From your site:
(a comment)

About this site:

https://holyspiritactivism.wordpress.com/about/

IOW, it is not a reliable site. It is a Charismatic site claiming a connection to the Anabaptists. The Charismatics only go a few years back. They don't go back that far.
The Pentecostal movement started in 1901 and the Charismatic movement after that. This guy is full of malarkey. We have had Charismatics on this board before trying to prove their existence before the 20th century. They can't. They didn't exist.
You are making this stuff up, or going to sites that are. Pentecostalism originated at the beginning of the 20th century and unknown among Christianity before then. They ceased at the end of the first century. The spiritual gifts ceased at the end of the first century.

....and yes it is a charismatic site. It is also the site of of one of the men that has started a current charismatic Anabaptist movement in Scandinavia. There is still, some floating out there today

 

[steaver]

Philip Schaff :

"Taking into account all his failings, he must be reckoned as one of the greatest and best of men whom God raised up in the history of Christianity."

William Cunningham :

"Calvin is the man who, next to St. Paul, has done most good to mankind."

Richard Baxter :

"I know no man, since the Apostles' days whom I value and honor more than Calvin, and whose judgment in all things, one with the other, I more esteem and come nearer to."

I don't know about anyone else, but these kind of statements just turn my stomach knowing the history of John Calvin. It's like Calvinist completely miss the love of Christ, the very theme of the Gospel. Paul being stoned and left for dead, never retaliating. Stephen being stoned and asking the Father to forgive the murderers. Christ Himself teaching over and over again to face an enemy of the cross with love.

From John Calvin....

Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory

Calvin declaring it is God who has in essence ordered the killing of these Christians who misunderstood the Trinity. I would be ASHAMED to be called a Calvinist. Yet many here wear the badge with honor. So sad!

Tell me Calvinist, where in the NT does Calvin base the underlined above statement? And some folks think Calvin was a great preacher??? Really??

 

[McCree79]

I don't know about anyone else, but these kind of statements just turn my stomach knowing the history of John Calvin. It's like Calvinist completely miss the love of Christ, the very theme of the Gospel. Paul being stoned and left for dead, never retaliating. Stephen being stoned and asking the Father to forgive the murderers. Christ Himself teaching over and over again to face an enemy of the cross with love.

From John Calvin....



Calvin declaring it is God who has in essence ordered the killing of these Christians who misunderstood the Trinity. I would be ASHAMED to be called a Calvinist. Yet many here wear the badge with honor. So sad!

Tell me Calvinist, where in the NT does Calvin base the underlined above statement? And some folks think Calvin was a great preacher??? Really??

Protestants throughout the 1500-1600's made choices that modern Christians would not. I am not ashamed to be called Protestants. Protestants during this time, were hardly better than the Catholic Church when it came to dealing with heresy. I don't think I have seen anyone who has said Killing Servetus was the right choice. Not per our standard of capital punishment today. But this was nearly 500 years ago. It was a rough time in history. I will even say that it was a dark time history in some aspects. We may look back at Luther, Calvin, Anabaptists, King James.....and we see things that they did, that we don't like. However the ground work they laid became a foundation of many truths we hold today. You may not agree, with Calvin and Luther on everything, but there teachings broke us free of "salvation by works"....salvation by the means the catholic church was teaching, the " buying of righteousness " with offerings to build churches. The purchasing of righteousness from the Treasury to buy loved ones out of purgatory. King James executed heretics, but he used his power to give us the greatest gift of the 1600's. The Bible he authorized has had unmeasurable effect of this country. Anabaptists, while the early versions did have heretical beliefs amount some, stood up for believers baptism. None were perfect, but all made significant contributions during a time of painful growing pains for the Protestants.

I think it is unfair to change any of the people or groups based upon our modern American moral standard. We would be no better than any of the aforementioned of we lived in their time. We would be a product of the environment, just like them. I respect things about all of them, I also disagree with some practices done by all of them.

I am not shamed to be called a baptist,not ashamed to be called a Calvinist, not ashamed to be called a Protestant. To be labeled any of the 3, does not mean you endorse every teaching that they ever taught, nor does it mean you agreed with every action they took.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

There are plenty of sites, plenty of Anabaptists, plenty of historians, that acknowledge early Charismatic movement's.

The Anabaptists, along with everyone else in the 1500's, had to work through issues.


http://www.anabaptistnetwork.com/book/export/html/173

There are plenty of Catholics out there that stoutly affirm that Peter was the first Pope and ruled from Rome for 25 years. Do you believe them as well?

 

[Rebel]

Protestants throughout the 1500-1600's made choices that modern Christians would not. I am not ashamed to be called Protestants. Protestants during this time, were hardly better than the Catholic Church when it came to dealing with heresy. I don't think I have seen anyone who has said Killing Servetus was the right choice. Not per our standard of capital punishment today. But this was nearly 500 years ago. It was a rough time in history. I will even say that it was a dark time history in some aspects. We may look back at Luther, Calvin, Anabaptists, King James.....and we see things that they did, that we don't like. However the ground work they laid became a foundation of many truths we hold today. You may not agree, with Calvin and Luther on everything, but there teachings broke us free of "salvation by works"....salvation by the means the catholic church was teaching, the " buying of righteousness " with offerings to build churches. The purchasing of righteousness from the Treasury to buy loved ones out of purgatory. King James executed heretics, but he used his power to give us the greatest gift of the 1600's. The Bible he authorized has had unmeasurable effect of this country. Anabaptists, while the early versions did have heretical beliefs amount some, stood up for believers baptism. None were perfect, but all made significant contributions during a time of painful growing pains for the Protestants.

I think it is unfair to change any of the people or groups based upon our modern American moral standard. We would be no better than any of the aforementioned of we lived in their time. We would be a product of the environment, just like them. I respect things about all of them, I also disagree with some practices done by all of them.

I am not shamed to be called a baptist,not ashamed to be called a Calvinist, not ashamed to be called a Protestant. To be labeled any of the 3, does not mean you endorse every teaching that they ever taught, nor does it mean you agreed with every action they took.

The fact that I have to keep restating is that the Anabaptists and Baptists lived in that time, and they believed in religious liberty and not in persecuting and murdering other Christians for supposed "heresy".

 

[McCree79]

There are plenty of Catholics out there that stoutly affirm that Peter was the first Pope and ruled from Rome for 25 years. Do you believe them as well?

Ignore history if you want. The Anabaptists have had their share of heretical beliefs. They have had a leader who received prophetic visions, they had 3 groups speak in tongues, kidnapped children for baptism in Australia, and most dismiss the teaching of the Trinity as demonic. They were not the perfect Christian group, without err, of the 1500's. It took them time "streamline". Still, a few "Anabaptists" still(European) hold to Charasmatic believes. ......of course, some "Baptists" have went over to the radical side, such as Westboro. Believing in believers baptism doesn't mean everything else they believe is right. The Anabaptist movement from the 1500's has mud on its face just like everyone else. All made mistakes.

 

[McCree79]

There are plenty of Catholics out there that stoutly affirm that Peter was the first Pope and ruled from Rome for 25 years. Do you believe them as well?

Of topic, sort of.....Catholic's really think Peter ruled "from Rome"? I haven't heard that from a Catholic. Not saying your wrong, but I haven't heard that. I have heard the claim he was Pope, even though he never claimed central leadership. Plus, it was James who made the ruling in Acts, not Peter. So I guess they must view James as the 2nd Pope or Pope .5....[emoji2]

Anyway, never heard the claim Peter ruled from Roman.

 

[Rebel]

Ignore history if you want. The Anabaptists have had their share of heretical beliefs. They have had a leader who received prophetic visions, they had 3 groups speak in tongues, kidnapped children for baptism in Australia, and most dismiss the teaching of the Trinity as demonic. They were not the perfect Christian group, without err, of the 1500's. It took them time "streamline". Still, a few "Anabaptists" still(European) hold to Charasmatic believes. ......of course, some "Baptists" have went over to the radical side, such as Westboro. Believing in believers baptism doesn't mean everything else they believe is right. The Anabaptist movement from the 1500's has mud on its face just like everyone else. All made mistakes.

As I said before, the Munster Anabaptists were one group atypical of the movement, unlike the Magisterial Reformers, all of whom were in favor of persecution, torture, and murder.

And your statement, "most dismiss the teaching of the Trinity as demonic", is absolutely false. I can refer you to early Mennonite confessions that refute what you're saying.

 

[McCree79]

The fact that I have to keep restating is that the Anabaptists and Baptists lived in that time, and they believed in religious liberty and not in persecuting and murdering other Christians for supposed "heresy".

What about kidnappings of Children? Was that "Christ's Love"?
I am not accusing Anabaptists of murder, only one time, in one location did Anabaptists get violent and that was more of a social movement than religiously motivated action.


Rebel,
Would you really denounce civil government, denounce the Trinity in the 1500's. I really doubt you would be an "Anabaptist" of the 1500's. Anabaptists denounced Capitol Punishment in general. It was not about sparing the life religious dissenters.(Are you against all forms of Capitol Punishment today?) Government was viewed as an enemy and they forbid Christian participation in government.

Calvin and Luther had differing views from each other and they didn't kill each of other. Nor did they execute anyone who disagreed with them. They didn't kill anyone due to believers Baptism. Calvin's wife believed in believers baptism when he meet her. Calvin had disagreements on the Lord's Supper and baptism with many people. Did not kill any of them....married one.

Are you as equally appalled by King James as you are of Calvin?

 

[McCree79]

As I said before, the Munster Anabaptists were one group atypical of the movement, unlike the Magisterial Reformers, all of whom were in favor of persecution, torture, and murder.

And your statement, "most dismiss the teaching of the Trinity as demonic", is absolutely false. I can refer you to early Mennonite confessions that refute what you're saying.

Where the Mennonites running around in the 1500's? The Mennonites came for the Anabaptists. I wouldn't call them "the" Anabaptists. They were not the movement of the 1500's I am referring to. Some Anabaptists spoke out against the Trinity through the 1600's.

*I'm not sure, but pretty sure Mennonites are for 1600's. Early 1500's many of them did not hold to the Trinity.... Of course they were no "Mennonites" by name yet.