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John Calvin's Lip Service

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McCree79

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Looks like the Anabaptists had a strong Antitrintarian movement until 1530
http://pacificuu.org/wilbur/ouh/chapter/07_VII.html

*also appears that some of the Strong persecution tools place in these areas.


*Rebel, I want to be clear. I am not referring to Mennonites or Amish. They both came after this heresy
 
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McCree79

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Rebel,

A question sir. Was there ever burnings of Anabaptists who were not against the Trinity? I don't know....that is a real question. Not rhetorical.
I will try to spend time on google tonight looking. But I know that Calvin and King James issues involved the Trinity.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Looks like the Anabaptists had a strong Antitrintarian movement until 1530
http://pacificuu.org/wilbur/ouh/chapter/07_VII.html

*also appears that some of the Strong persecution tools place in these areas.


*Rebel, I want to be clear. I am not referring to Mennonites or Amish. They both came after this heresy

It is apparent that you don't want the truth:
http://www.anabaptists.org/history/sepamarg.html

http://www.house-church.net/original/beliefs.htm

The List of Anabaptist Beliefs

Infant baptism is a false baptism. Moreover, baptism does not save. One has to be saved in order to be baptised, i.e. the condition for baptism is to be a follower of Christ by having a living belief in Christ (cf. Acts 8:36-38).

Church and the State should be separated. Church is a Body of followers of Christ who respect the Laws of the State as long as it doesn't contradict with the Law of Christ. Church is not a political institution having any political power in the State. Church should not have any support from the State.

The Roman Catholic Church is not the true Church of Christ.

Calvinist theology of God's election is wrong. God does not unconditionally reprobate people to Hell. Rather, God's Manifested Wrath is conditional, and the condition is of not being in Christ. God will show His wrath only to people who are not in Christ. Likewise, God's election is conditional, and the condition is being in Christ. God elects only people who are in Christ.

Lutheran theology of salvation is wrong. Faith in Christ should be a living faith, faith which is confirmed in the fruits of Spirit. People who are living sinful life, without true repentance, will end in Hell. Living in sin and occasionally falling in sin are not the same thing. All children of God can fall in sin because of our weaknesses, but they do not live in sin.

Worshiping God is a very serious thing, and we ought not to introduce new things in our Worship, of which the Bible doesn't say anything about.

The Bible is a closed canon of holy books, i.e no more additions to the Bible are allowed because there are no more Apostles and Prophets in the Church. Only Apostles and Prophets have the authority to add new books to the Canon of the Bible. There are no new revelations or prophecies, and all supernatural Charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are no more present in the children of God. The Charismatic gifts were only present during the Apostolic period of Church (the 1st. century). The Bible is our necessary and sufficient supreme authority in our lives.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Rebel,

A question sir. Was there ever burnings of Anabaptists who were not against the Trinity? I don't know....that is a real question. Not rhetorical.
I will try to spend time on google tonight looking. But I know that Calvin and King James issues involved the Trinity.

The persecution of the Anabaptists took place mainly on the grounds that "they re-baptized" as their name indicates. For this practice they were a hated group from all sides--the RCC, Church of England, Lutherans, and Presbyterians.
 

McCree79

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The persecution of the Anabaptists took place mainly on the grounds that "they re-baptized" as their name indicates. For this practice they were a hated group from all sides--the RCC, Church of England, Lutherans, and Presbyterians.
Executions, or ran *off the land they occupied? I only know of executions of anti trinitarian Anabaptists
 

McCree79

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Your Anabaptist link does not change the fact the Unitarian Movement traces all the way back into the Anabaptist movement. Just as the Mennonites came form them, so did these Unitarians. You can try to re write history if you want. But they name at least 4 unitarian Anabaptist teachers from the 1500's that there teachings are from.

I will post the home page.

http://pacificuu.org/fore/
 

Yeshua1

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The Bible doesn't change.
Christ doesn't change.
If a man is a Christian he ought to display the fruit of the Spirit in his life no matter what his culture, country, climate, or citizenship may be.

And yet if Calvin lived in America today, and had the freedom to act as he did in the 16th century, I believe he would be considered a "home-gown terrorist."

So to you was he saved, was he a gifted pastor/teacher/theologian, or just another heretic of times past then?
 

Yeshua1

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Rebel,

A question sir. Was there ever burnings of Anabaptists who were not against the Trinity? I don't know....that is a real question. Not rhetorical.
I will try to spend time on google tonight looking. But I know that Calvin and King James issues involved the Trinity.

Did John Calvin sin even after being saved by God?

Yes

Sometimes very badly?

Yes

was he still a gifted teacher/expositor/theologian God used to instruct his people in the truths of the scriptures

Yes

was he infallible, his views on doctrine/theology always correct?

No, but more right than a vast majority living today would wager!
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Your Anabaptist link does not change the fact the Unitarian Movement traces all the way back into the Anabaptist movement. Just as the Mennonites came form them, so did these Unitarians. You can try to re write history if you want. But they name at least 4 unitarian Anabaptist teachers from the 1500's that there teachings are from.

I will post the home page.

http://pacificuu.org/fore/
IOW:
Pacific Unitarian Universalist is a resource center for ministers, seminarians, lay-leaders and individuals interested in liberal religion, Unitarianism and Universalism, the Radical Reformation and related areas of study.
A direct statement that they are NOT interested in the truth.
Why do you go to such sites?

Look again at its purpose:
WELCOME to our Universalism website!

“We commit ourselves to the task of bringing the spirit of Universalism fully alive as a living history within our Unitarian Universalist movement and the world at large. This we do in a spirit of openness and fairness with reverence for the living tradition which nourishes us.”
—Diane Dowgiert, Sally White, & Gail Scott, Universalist History Class, Starr King School for the Ministry, 1999

Our mission is to capture the vibrant living and past stories of Universalism. Our initial focus will fill in the evolution of Universalism in the United States from 1750s — the people and events. As the site grows, we are incorporating many facets of Universalist identity. We strive to:

Reach out and record the voices of Universalist people bringing into our midst their memories and message for today;
Reproduce existing texts and contemporary papers on Universalism to encourage understanding and discussion regarding the interplay of Universalist and Unitarian heritage;
Create a forum where Universalists from around the world can engage in dialogue with one another.
In the interest of remaining universal in our scope… We construct this site with the hope that seekers of all kinds will use it: lifespan religious education teachers, curious individuals, ministers and scholars.
http://pacificuu.org/publ/univ/
 
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Rebel

Active Member
Rebel,

A question sir. Was there ever burnings of Anabaptists who were not against the Trinity? I don't know....that is a real question. Not rhetorical.
I will try to spend time on google tonight looking. But I know that Calvin and King James issues involved the Trinity.

They were persecuted, tortured, and murdered in various horrible ways by Catholic and Protestant alike, because they opposed state churches and infant baptism. They also opposed oaths and going to war.
 

McCree79

Well-Known Member
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IOW:

A direct statement that they are NOT interested in the truth.
Why do you go to such sites?

Look again at its purpose:

http://pacificuu.org/publ/univ/
I don't think the are seeking truth either. That is why thru deny the Trinity. But their views have came from early Anabaptist believers. Not all the Anabaptists believed the same thing in the 1500's. Heck, they don't believe the same things now.

Yes they are out in left field. That is the point DHK. I posted them because they are insane. Just like some were in the 1500's. Servetus, Wightman and the other 3 from the previous link. all taught this, all had followers. All Anabaptists.
 

McCree79

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
They were persecuted, tortured, and murdered in various horrible ways by Catholic and Protestant alike, because they opposed state churches and infant baptism. They also opposed oaths and going to war.
Do you have any locations or names off the top of your head? Don't go searching if you don't. I'm not asking you to waste time for me. I will look tonight.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
C.T. Christian, A History of The Baptists, states in his chapter on the Anabaptists:
The Anabaptist movement was the continuation of the old evangelical faith maintained by the Waldenses and other Mediaeval Christians. Limborch, the historian of the Inquisition, says:

To speak my mind freely, if their opinions and customs were to be examined without prejudice, it would appear that among all of the modern sects of Christians, they had the greatest resemblance to that of the Mennonites or Dutch Baptists (Limborch, The History of the Inquisition, 1.57.London, 1731).

Dr. Allen, Professor in Harvard University, says:

Side by side with the creed which has worked itself out into such shapes as these (referring to the Roman hierarchy) has come down the primitive, obstinate, heroic, anti-sacerdotal tradition, which has made the starting point of many a radical protest, from the Puritan Novatians of the third century down to the English Independents of the seventeenth. That tradition in its most logical form is not only Protestant, but Baptist.

Dr. Ludwig Keller, a learned member of the Reformed Church, the Munster Archivist, and now in charge of the Archives in Berlin, says:

It is not to be doubted also that in the process of scientific investigation still further traces will be brought to light…Much rather can it be proved that in the lands mentioned Baptist churches existed for many decades and even centuries before the Reformation (The Baptist Quarterly, Review, VII. 28-31).

In his last work Keller says:

The "silent points of this mode of viewing history is that inside of the evangelical world an unbroken course of development and historical continuity reached far back beyond the sixteenth century is a matter of fact; and yet it equally repudiates the Catholic supposition that only since 1517 "an appalling apostasy from the true faith took place in the Western World," and that of Luther’s followers that with him the light of the Gospel first (since the apostasy) came into the world (Keller, Die Anfange der Reformation, iii, iv. Translated for The Western Recorder by Dr. Albert H. Newman).
 

Rebel

Active Member
Do you have any locations or names off the top of your head? Don't go searching if you don't. I'm not asking you to waste time for me. I will look tonight.

I'll give you three names, and then some articles; these will do for starters. The Anabaptists (Mennonites and others) were persecuted, tortured mutilated, murdered by state churchists both Roman Catholic and Protestant; prepare to be made sick to your stomach:

Felix Manz; Michael Sattler; Dirk Willems

http://www.anabaptists.org/writings/excerpts/mennonites-in-europe-persecution.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_Mirror

http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/contents.htm



Persecutions and migrations

Roman Catholics and Protestants alike persecuted the Anabaptists, resorting to torture and execution in attempts to curb the growth of the movement. The Protestants under Zwingli were the first to persecute the Anabaptists, with Felix Manz becoming the first martyr in 1527. On May 20, 1527, Roman Catholic authorities executed Michael Sattler. King Ferdinand declared drowning (called the third baptism) "the best antidote to Anabaptism". The Tudor regime, even the Protestant monarchs (Edward VI of England and Elizabeth I of England), persecuted Anabaptists as they were deemed too radical and therefore a danger to religious stability. The persecution of Anabaptists was condoned by ancient laws of Theodosius I and Justinian I that were passed against the Donatists, which decreed the death penalty for any who practiced rebaptism. Martyrs Mirror, by Thieleman J. van Braght, describes the persecution and execution of thousands of Anabaptists in various parts of Europe between 1525 and 1660. Continuing persecution in Europe was largely responsible for the mass emigrations to North America by Amish, Hutterites, and Mennonites."
 

Rippon

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The subject of this thread is on the person of John Calvin. Do not go on side trails.

Al Mohler Jr. :

"John Calvin was a multi-faceted personality possessed of manifest gifts. God invested this man with extraordinary intelligence, theological courage, unquestioned tenacity, and a deep love for the church."

"Half a millennium after his birth, Calvin's theological contribution appears more, rather than less, important than it appeared in his own day."

T.H.L. Parker :

"By expounding Scripture as a whole he was forced to deal with the scriptural range of ideas. And, as an honest interpreter, he labored to represent the thoought of the Bible faithfully. He had a horror of those who preached their own ideas in place of the gospel of the Bible : 'When we enter ther pulpit, it is not so that we may bring our own dreams and fancies with us.' "
 

McCree79

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I'll give you three names, and then some articles; these will do for starters. The Anabaptists (Mennonites and others) were persecuted, tortured mutilated, murdered by state churchists both Roman Catholic and Protestant; prepare to be made sick to your stomach:

Felix Manz; Michael Sattler; Dirk Willems

http://www.anabaptists.org/writings/excerpts/mennonites-in-europe-persecution.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_Mirror

http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/contents.htm



Persecutions and migrations

Roman Catholics and Protestants alike persecuted the Anabaptists, resorting to torture and execution in attempts to curb the growth of the movement. The Protestants under Zwingli were the first to persecute the Anabaptists, with Felix Manz becoming the first martyr in 1527. On May 20, 1527, Roman Catholic authorities executed Michael Sattler. King Ferdinand declared drowning (called the third baptism) "the best antidote to Anabaptism". The Tudor regime, even the Protestant monarchs (Edward VI of England and Elizabeth I of England), persecuted Anabaptists as they were deemed too radical and therefore a danger to religious stability. The persecution of Anabaptists was condoned by ancient laws of Theodosius I and Justinian I that were passed against the Donatists, which decreed the death penalty for any who practiced rebaptism. Martyrs Mirror, by Thieleman J. van Braght, describes the persecution and execution of thousands of Anabaptists in various parts of Europe between 1525 and 1660. Continuing persecution in Europe was largely responsible for the mass emigrations to North America by Amish, Hutterites, and Mennonites."
Felix Manz: I have no issue with him or his Swiss group. Nothing substantial anyway. I would not call this group of Anabaptists heretical. I see nothing wrong with them.....of course, my limited reading is of Wikipedia :)

I will give the other 2 a look later tonight.

I don't not have issues with all early Anabaptist teachings. Just the 4 or 5 I listed earlier in this thread. Felix seems to be a good man. By our worldly standards and Christian standards.....but my knowledge of him is very limited.
 

Squire Robertsson

Administrator
Administrator
I would also add George Blaurock to the list. He was an associate of Grebel and Manz.

And for your reading enjoyment I recommend The Reformers and Their Stepchildren by Leonard Verduin.
 

steaver

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Did John Calvin sin even after being saved by God?

Yes

Sometimes very badly?

Yes

was he still a gifted teacher/expositor/theologian God used to instruct his people in the truths of the scriptures

Yes

was he infallible, his views on doctrine/theology always correct?

No, but more right than a vast majority living today would wager!

We are talking about killing another human being here and for what? For being wrong about the Trinity. If Calvin had no idea what Jesus taught concerning loving others then I highly doubt he had any good insight to something more complex like election.
 

Rebel

Active Member
We are talking about killing another human being here and for what? For being wrong about the Trinity. If Calvin had no idea what Jesus taught concerning loving others then I highly doubt he had any good insight to something more complex like election.

Indeed. Even if someone was not orthodox, that is still no reason to persecute, torture, and murder them. That is what state churchists regularly did to Anabaptists, other Dissenters, and even to each other.
 
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