John Leland Center in Virginia

[Jimmy C]

Neal is is great to live in a black and white world and to pick out one scripture that suits you and stick to it. I applaud you (but I will stay away from your church, better for both of us).

We interpret 1 timothy differently, but then I guess we probably interpret Acts differently when Aquilla and Priscilla instruct Apollos. In fact this passage speaks more to a seminary type setting than the passage in 1 timothy which is usually intrepreted for womens conduct in church.

Question, just to see if you are consistent in you desire to not come under the authority of a woman, do you read texbooks written by women? Do you allow men to use sunday school cirruculm written by women, or men to sit in classes that the sunday school cirriculum was written by a woman? By definition, they are putting themselves under the authority of a woman by using that cirriculum.

 

[neal4christ]

Neal is is great to live in a black and white world and to pick out one scripture that suits you and stick to it.

I just told you that there are other passages that talk of men and women's roles. Do you just ignore what I say?

but then I guess we probably interpret Acts differently when Aquilla and Priscilla instruct Apollos.

Yes, we would. How is it more of a seminary setting? Come on, now. And you know that Aquila was a man, right (Acts 18:2)?

do you read texbooks written by women?

None thus far.

Do you allow men to use sunday school cirruculm written by women, or men to sit in classes that the sunday school cirriculum was written by a woman?

I am not a pastor.

However, we are going through this in our church right now. And we are dealing with it. As for my Sunday School class, no, the material we use is written by men. At least for this semester. I will probably go on to doing my own lessons next. I am not a fan of pre-packaged Bible study materials.

God Bless You, Jimmy.

Neal

 

[Jimmy C]

yes I know that Aquilla was a man, but the passage in Acts says that Aquilla AND Priscilla instructed Appolos. The reason I see this as similar to a seminary is that Appolos came to them with basic knowlege, Aquilla and Priscilla gave him further instruction, after which Appolos was sent out to do missions.

I do applaud you on your consistency, although I'm sure that Lifeway would like to have your church using their cirruclum, and you do support them with your CP dollars.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> If you’re not going to make time to study the issue, it might be better not to dismiss an argument you’ve never studied.

Do you know how many "issues" I am asked to study and look at? It may be years before I could read this guy's work! </font>[/QUOTE]So you’re saying you’re not too busy to criticize those who hold a different view, but too busy to try to understand their view?

I asked you to look at one chapter (about 10 pages) in one book that is probably in your library. I doubt that the chapter is more than 4000 words at most. I’m guessing you read more than that every time you cruise the Baptist Board.

It is not a major "issue" for me because it is pretty much a non-issue.

But you somehow feel free to tell others that God has laid down a standard without being very careful that you are correct in your interpretation?

Paul said that he did not permit women to teach or exercise authority over men. With such a clear-cut statement this "issue" is not very high on my priority list.

Of course you probably know that the word translated “women” can also be translated “wives” and that this prohibition may actually be addressed to the wives of those men who speak in church so that they would not question their husbands on their sermons in front of the congregation… thus creating a scandal because they were violating the submission principles of their society and causing discord in the congregation.

But of course it may be better that you do not look at Ellis’ book because if you were to change your understanding of what scripture teaches and then feel ethically compelled to be faithful to scripture, your hard work at Southeastern might be in vain because Paige Patterson and the SBC leadership will not allow discussion or dissent on this issue.

I will do my homework. But my homework will yield to the God-breathed Scriptures.

Good. I hope you do yield to scripture. I also hope you realize that I had to change my position against women in ministry because of the teaching of scripture.

If it makes you feel better, E. Earle Ellis teaches at Southwestern Seminary and in widely recognized as one of the world’s foremost authority on Paul. He is also extremely conservative with scripture.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As a Bible College grad, I had women teachers. I learned about outlining and parallel structure from Miss Laughlin in ENG 101 (Grammar and Compostion). Then there was my sophomore lady Eng. and Amer. Lit teacher. But, my practical and systematic theology teachers were all males. At the time, Mrs. Hollowood taught a section of Christian Doctrine. However, it was an all female class. (And that is quite in keeping with 1TIM.) Looking back at it, knowing Mrs. H, I wish I could have been a fly on the wall of that classroom. In many ways, she is fully her husband's equal in the field of systematic theology.

Concerning Mr. Ellis' position, unless and until it is presented here in precise, it is not easily available. I just did an Amazon search and found that while there were three used copies for sale, there were no new ones to be had. So, insisting that those of us who are not familiar with the work cited acquire a copy is a poor argument. (Besides, my wife would not at all be happy with me spending from 10.49 to 31.47USD for a book I buy only for an discussion on this Board.)

[ July 25, 2003, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Squire Robertsson ]

 

[neal4christ]

I asked you to look at one chapter (about 10 pages) in one book that is probably in your library.

It's 20 miles for me to go to campus. I am not in school now. Catch my drift?

But you somehow feel free to tell others that God has laid down a standard without being very careful that you are correct in your interpretation?

I am sorry you feel that way. Seems pretty clear. I guess I can go back and read what Paul wrote again if it will make you feel better.

Of course you probably know that the word translated “women” can also be translated “wives”

So you would agree that wives was the correct translation in I Timothy 3 when it comes to deacons?

thus creating a scandal because they were violating the submission principles of their society and causing discord in the congregation.

Oh yeah, and Paul just mentioned Adam and Eve for the fun of it, even though it was a "cultural" thing.

But of course it may be better that you do not look at Ellis’ book because if you were to change your understanding of what scripture teaches and then feel ethically compelled to be faithful to scripture, your hard work at Southeastern might be in vain because Paige Patterson and the SBC leadership will not allow discussion or dissent on this issue.

Give me a break, my friend. I am not afraid to look at the evidence. When it is convenient and when I do not have more pressing issues, I will try to find your chapter you want me to read. I have looked at things far larger than this issue of women teaching that could have radically changed my beliefs. Just go down to the Other Religions forum. I have read some of the things my Catholic friends suggest there to see both sides of that issue. So stop trying to paint me out to be a weak little robot. I really don't appreciate that. I grew up Pentecostal and had women preachers/teachers all over. So see, I have changed my beliefs in light of Scripture, too.

And you comment would be valid if I worshiped Paige Patterson and feared him. But I don't. I didn't even know who the guy was until I came to school here last year. My faith is far bigger than the SBC. Keeping them happy is the least of my concerns. So please, get off your high horse and stop acting like you know what my situation is and and what I think.

I also hope you realize that I had to change my position against women in ministry because of the teaching of scripture.

Ditto.

If it makes you feel better, E. Earle Ellis teaches at Southwestern Seminary and in widely recognized as one of the world’s foremost authority on Paul. He is also extremely conservative with scripture.

Okay. I wasn't scared in the first place, so no, I don't feel better.

May the Lord Richly Bless You,
Neal

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
....I asked you to look at one chapter (about 10 pages) in one book that is probably in your library....

It is not in my library nor do I think it is in any library of my church's pastoral staff nor do I have easy access to a Bible college or seminary library. Your insistence on (as we have had a discussion on this matter with you refering to Mr. Ellis before) everyone reading the book is spurious. Though, I assume you gave at least an inkling of Mr. Ellis' views when you said that the women refered to in 1Tim are properly seen as wives and stated the applications of that interpertation.

As for his teaching at Southwestern, sorry in my circles that's a null reference. Not a negative nor a positive one mind you, just that the school in and of its self carries no weight to me and mine.

[ July 25, 2003, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Squire Robertsson ]

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:

But of course it may be better that you do not look at Ellis’ book because if you were to change your understanding of what scripture teaches and then feel ethically compelled to be faithful to scripture, your hard work at Southeastern might be in vain because Paige Patterson and the SBC leadership will not allow discussion or dissent on this issue.

Boy that's a mouth full!

Have you ever sat in a class with Dr. Patterson? Since you seem to "know" so much about the way that classes are taught here at SEBTS (under Dr. Patterson's leadership), why don't you explain just how those classes are conducted?

It appears that you believe that we (all conservative students) just show up for class, sit there like mindless sponges, and soak up everything we hear no questions asked and no debate ever takes place. Likewise, it appears that you think that we do not read or even look at the liberal or "moderate" view of theological issues. You could not be more wrong if you tried to be wrong (of course you may be attempting to be wrong just to paint us in a bad light I don't know). Neal did not refuse to read the material that you referenced. He said that he would do so when he had time. Therefore, get off his back!

I'll tell ya what; I have a bit of free time before the semester begins. I will get the book you reference from the library in the morning. I'll read the chapter and come back and we can discuss the matter. However, we'll have to start another thread because this is not the appropriate one to hold such a discussion. We are waaaaaaay off topic here. This thread is supposed to be about a school in Virginia. After I have read your reference and we start our discussion just remember that the inerrant Word God is the final authority and not Ellis' interpretation of the Bible.

Oh yeah, to whoever was talking about Sunday School curriculum written by women:

At my church we do not use "Sunday School curriculum." We have an abundance of very capable seminary students (Doctoral level, M.Divs., Master of Arts., and Bachelor of Arts) and seminary professors that are able to conduct expository teaching directly from the Scriptures. Therefore, we have no need to purchase someone else's material. Additionally, our membership is so well grounded in the Word that those Sunday School teachers had better be on their toes and right on the mark with what they present in class.

 

[Speedpass]

As far as the Leland Center being a "partner" with CBF, I could not find any evidence to support this claim at either the Leland website or the CBF's.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Squire Robertsson:
Concerning Mr. Ellis' position, unless and until it is presented here in precise, it is not easily available. I just did an Amazon search and found that while there were three used copies for sale, there were no new ones to be had.

Hmm… Okay, I’ll have to figure out how to distill the information in such as way as not to violate his copyright. Unfortunately for the purposes of our discussion, the material is so carefully and succinctly worded, it is going to be very difficult to do that.

I’m going to try to speak to Ellis Sunday and ask him permission to quote him very extensively.

Thanks!

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I asked you to look at one chapter (about 10 pages) in one book that is probably in your library.

It's 20 miles for me to go to campus. I am not in school now. Catch my drift? </font>[/QUOTE]The drift has been caught.

I was somehow under the impression that you live on or near the campus of Southeastern.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Of course you probably know that the word translated “women” can also be translated “wives”

So you would agree that wives was the correct translation in I Timothy 3 when it comes to deacons? </font>[/QUOTE]If you know anything about translation, you know that context helps the translator determine the meaning of words that can be translated a number of ways.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> But of course it may be better that you do not look at Ellis’ book because if you were to change your understanding of what scripture teaches and then feel ethically compelled to be faithful to scripture, your hard work at Southeastern might be in vain because Paige Patterson and the SBC leadership will not allow discussion or dissent on this issue.

Give me a break, my friend. I am not afraid to look at the evidence. </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, I got a little hot headed at this point.

I have had this discussion with other seminary students (at Southwestern) and they have told me point blank that they aren’t interested in studying the issue because it might be detrimental to their careers.

And you comment would be valid if I worshiped Paige Patterson and feared him. But I don't. I didn't even know who the guy was until I came to school here last year. My faith is far bigger than the SBC.

Excellent!

Keeping them happy is the least of my concerns. So please, get off your high horse and stop acting like you know what my situation is and and what I think.

I have dismounted off my high horse.

I never assumed I knew what you think.

Thanks!

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Squire Robertsson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
....I asked you to look at one chapter (about 10 pages) in one book that is probably in your library....

It is not in my library nor do I think it is in any library of my church's pastoral staff nor do I have easy access to a Bible college or seminary library. </font>[/QUOTE]The reference to the book “probably [being] in your library” was intended specifically for Neil and was referencing Southeastern Seminary’s library.

Your insistence on (as we have had a discussion on this matter with you refering to Mr. Ellis before) everyone reading the book is spurious. Though, I assume you gave at least an inkling of Mr. Ellis' views when you said that the women refered to in 1Tim are properly seen as wives and stated the applications of that interpertation.

That is a very small part of it. As I referenced in a previous message, I’m going to have to figure out how to distill everything down to its essence to post it here.

As for his teaching at Southwestern, sorry in my circles that's a null reference. Not a negative nor a positive one mind you, just that the school in and of its self carries no weight to me and mine.

Again, that was a reference for Neal.

Dr. Ellis, so far, has taught happily under the rule of the “conservative resurgence” (sic) leadership – so it is a sign that Ellis is not some sort of scripture-denying flaming liberal reactionary.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by BibleboyII:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:

But of course it may be better that you do not look at Ellis’ book because if you were to change your understanding of what scripture teaches and then feel ethically compelled to be faithful to scripture, your hard work at Southeastern might be in vain because Paige Patterson and the SBC leadership will not allow discussion or dissent on this issue.

Boy that's a mouth full!

Have you ever sat in a class with Dr. Patterson? Since you seem to "know" so much about the way that classes are taught here at SEBTS (under Dr. Patterson's leadership), why don't you explain just how those classes are conducted? </font>

If you’ll notice, I didn’t say anything about Southwestern Seminary classes. My reference to his “hard work at Southeastern” begin in vain was a reference to his degree or pursuit of a degree.

If a person is convinced by scripture that women may be called of God to preach and serve in pastoral roles, then a recent degree from any of the SBC seminaries has little value – Churches in line with the “conservative resurgence” (sic) won’t have you because you’ve deviated from the most recent BF&M and the more moderate churches are going to be suspicious of you because of your theological training under the heavy influence of “conservative” professors.

On a personal note, I decided not to continue my education at Southwestern Seminary (and therefore lost all of my credit for work there) because I realized that a degree from Southwestern would not help me fulfill my calling anymore because of the changes in the SBC.

Neal did not refuse to read the material that you referenced. He said that he would do so when he had time. Therefore, get off his back!

Yep. I was wrong to come down on him that strongly.

Recently I was having a similar discussion with another member of BaptistBoard who told me he wasn’t going to waste time looking at something he didn’t believe because he had too many other things to do. I suppose I was reacting in light of those comments.

I'll tell ya what; I have a bit of free time before the semester begins. I will get the book you reference from the library in the morning. I'll read the chapter and come back and we can discuss the matter.

I would be delighted to discuss the matter with you! However, I don’t want it to be in a hostile debate with personal attacks or references to how neither of us “believe the Bible”, I’d like it to be more of a discussion. I don’t know if you will agree or disagree, but I think you will understand why some of us hold the views that we do.

However, we'll have to start another thread because this is not the appropriate one to hold such a discussion.

Agreed!

After I have read your reference and we start our discussion just remember that the inerrant Word God is the final authority and not Ellis' interpretation of the Bible.

I don’t have problems remembering that.

Oh yeah, to whoever was talking about Sunday School curriculum written by women…

Is this a bad place to mention that many ghost writers for preachers and “Christian personalities” are women? About 18 months ago I met a woman who was one of Henry Blackaby’s ghost writers…

 

[Speedpass]

BB, could that mean that Blackaby might not be the "real" author of Experiencing God ???

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by ExxonMobil:
BB, could that mean that Blackaby might not be the "real" author of Experiencing God ???

She wrote one of the many additional products to the "Experiencing God" line (I don't recall which one - I didn't think it was that big of a deal) under the direction of the publisher and the Blackaby family.

Even if she had written "Experiencing God", I strongly suspect that it would have been written from Blackaby's notes and input instead of created in wholecloth by the ghost writer.

In most circumstances, ghost writers simply communicate existing material into a form suitable for a book, although I know specifically of a few circumstances where the ghost writer wrote the book and the "personality" simply made suggestions and approved the text when it was complete.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by ExxonMobil:
As far as the Leland Center being a "partner" with CBF, I could not find any evidence to support this claim at either the Leland website or the CBF's.

I posted the following on July 25, 2003. I guess it was missed due to the debate about Ellis' book that arose immediately after I posted.

Originally posted by BibleboyII on July 25, 2003:

The bit in the school's statement that says, "Jesus Christ is the interpretative principle for Scripture..." is a nearly direct quote from the long standing CBF mantra on the same subject. Additionally, as rlvaughn pointed out above, the school is affiliated with the BGAV. I would venture to argue that the BGAV has both feet firmly planted in the CBF camp (speaking as a Virginian now living in NC for seminary).

Anyway, this type of topic comes up every so often here on BB. When it does I always ask for someone who espouses a statement such as, "Jesus Christ is the interpretative principle for Scripture..." to please provide a cogent explanation as to how they know the Jesus Christ that they wish to use as the interpretative principle for Scripture, apart from the Scriptures? To date no one has provided a cogent answer.