John MacArthur Booted off Bible Broadcasting Network

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Major B;

Any doctrine which denies God's total control of salvation is out of balance.

Any doctrine that denies the total free offer and responsibility of man to believe is out of balance.

So are you saying that men have a choice but not really?. Or are you saying that in order for God to have total control, man has no choice. Is Salvation a mutual understanding that comes from faith in Christ?. Or is it made to happen by God alone?. It can't be a combination of both. I don't throw out any scripture either, but take it as a whole in context. Rather than a few sentences here and there.

Truth is not a balance of both doctrines, but a total surrender of one's self to Christ. A complete commitment ignoring all else. I seek to better understand why any man would accept the doctrines of men when the doctrine of Christ is so clear.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
<snip>
And please use to learn the quote feature.

I can see he's starting to drive you nuts, PL ?
Did you mean 'learn to use' or 'use to learn' ?

 

[Major B]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
So are you saying that men have a choice but not really?. Or are you saying that in order for God to have total control, man has no choice. Is Salvation a mutual understanding that comes from faith in Christ?. Or is it made to happen by God alone?. It can't be a combination of both. I don't throw out any scripture either, but take it as a whole in context. Rather than a few sentences here and there.

I am saying that the Bible does not answer the questions raised by election to the satisfaction of any philosopher--any more than God felt He had to answer Job's questions! The Bible clearly, in long passages, not isolated verses, teaches God's total control of salvation. The Bible just as clearly and definitively teaches man's opportunity, responsibility and accountability.

God has no problem with these twin towers of truth. God has not seen fit to reconcile them to the satisfaction of any man.


The questions you raise are the doctrines of men. What does it mean? God is in control, and I am responsible and accountable.

Finally, if you will notice, I mainly quoted whole chapters and long passages, not isolated verses, and there were many other verses and long passages that could be quoted. However, I seldom spend much time debating this--that would not be very "calvinistic" of me.

 

[Major B]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
The autocratic selecting of some for Heaven and Hell is merely the aberration of John Calvin so newly out of Catholicism, who took his thoughts from Augustine.

Calvin's exegesis comes from the Bible, and he is the recoverer of the grammatical-historical exegetical methodology, which the RCC abandoned over 1,000 years before Calvin came along. Not only did Calvin differ totally with the exegetical methodology of Augustine, but JC covered nearly the whole Bible with exegetical studies, far more territory than Augustine ever covered. So, he sure did not get his major ideas from Auggie. Augustine saw some of the same things that Calvin saw later, but missed many of the things that the Reformers found.

Calvin certainly did not get his doctrine from Catholicism. The official position of the RCC then, as now, is semi-pelagianism, which is pretty much identical to arminianism.

Those who believe in unfettered arminianism will find that the road backward from their theology leads to the Vatican.

 

[Major B]

By the way, speaking as a political scientist, "autocrat" refers to a leader who allows no rivals, and who is sovereign, with no one having the right to say to him, "what are you doing?"

The last time I looked, God was and is the ultimate autocrat.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 3:3-4 - God Himself is judged.

I think you need to re-check your figures.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Major B]

Rom 3:1-4 "What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.""

Dan 4:34-35 "And at the end of the time I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my understanding returned to me; and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever: For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom is from generation to generation. 35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?""

I believe that these verses rather support my position--those who ATTEMPT to judge God will not be successful.

 

[BobRyan]

To be justified in one's words - they can not "Be found to be a tyrant". Furthermore - who is observing and evaluating them so that they even could "justify them"?

God opens Himself up to investigation. We see this in Job 1. God makes a claim and He is challenged. He could simply say "Hey! Wait a minute! Who is God here anyway? That would be ME! So you don't exist - and presto! You don't"

But what does He do "instead"?

I think that is what you are seeing in Rom 3 and it is what we are seeing in Rev 19:1-2.

Then of course there is Michael arguing with Lucifer. God COULD say "Wait a minute! Michael is doing my bidding - so you... don't exist anymore" but scripture makes a big point about not reviling even such a morally corrupt person as Satan when disputing with Michael commander of the hosts of heaven.

We see it with Abraham bargaining with God over Soddom. We see it with Moses negotiating with God over a speaker to talk to Pharoah.

I agree that God could easily tell everyone to "zip it"! But He doesn't always do that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
&lt;snip&gt;
And please use to learn the quote feature.

I can see he's starting to drive you nuts, PL ?
Did you mean 'learn to use' or 'use to learn' ?

</font>[/QUOTE]Wow ... that was nice on my part wasn't it ... ... Sorry about that ... Sometimes I do that speaking to ...

 

[Ray Berrian]

'No one is taking any sovereignty away from God, as if we could do this.

We do get disgusted with people who by using Romans nine turn the Lord to an uncaring Being Who damns people at will, and then to make it worse say that He is doing it for His own alleged glory and praise.

The truth is that God has by His own will and decree made human beings the master of their destiny, but only after the Lord calls them by His Spirit to eternal life. Believe and be saved or disregard Me and be damned. [Mark 16:16]'

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
The truth is that God has by His own will and decree made human beings the master of their destiny

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Acts 17:26
And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings

Oh yeah, God has made man master of his own destiny alright.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Ray Berrian said:

The truth is that God has by His own will and decree made human beings the master of their destiny

And where are the Scriptures, Ray ? Unless you can show clear, irrefutable Scriptures that God has surrendered His sovereignty to fallen man, this will be another one of those 'theological' ramblings of yours.

 

[Ray Berrian]

npetreley,

'Originally posted by Ray Berrian: 'The truth is that God has by His own will and decree
made human beings the master of their destiny.'


Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Ray-quote: 'If you take Proverbs to be authored by Solomon {1:1} and I believe you would, then you must admit that God was speaking through Solomon to God's people and not the masses of sinners that will end up in Hell. So it is the Godly man or woman who designs his or her own way, but the Lord maps our steps.'

Acts 17:26
And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the
face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the
boundaries of their dwellings.

Oh yeah, God has made man master of his own destiny alright.

Ray-quote: 'I as a Christian and an Arminian in belief have no problem with your stated verse. Of course, Almighty God has determined the time of our life and where we will travel and live.

This is hardly a good place to 'plug in' to try to teach your predestinarian view of our loving, just and merciful God who autocratically marks some fortunate sinners for Heaven and the rest to an eternal Hell.

Read Mark 16:16 and you will hopefully understand that Almighty God seals our election based on our true belief and trust in Jesus Christ.

Peter, the lead apostle of the faith tells us that God is not willing that any should perish and beyond this He is longsuffering toward His lost creation. [II Peter 3:9]

 

[Pastor Larry]

RAY, LEARN TO USE THE QUOTE FUNCTION. I HAVE ALREADY EXPLAINED IT TO YOU AND GIVEN YOU DIRECTIONS. HOW MANY TIMES DO i HAVE TO SAY IT?? IT IS GETTING VERY OLD. YOUR POSTS ARE HARD TO READ BECAUSE IT IS NOT EASILY DISCERNIBLE WHO IS SAYING WHAT. GET IT RIGHT.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Read Mark 16:16 and you will hopefully understand that Almighty God seals our election based on our true belief and trust in Jesus Christ.

And what part of Mark 16:15 shows that election is based on our belief? Could you please finally demonstrate this? You have been making this assertion for more than a year now and have yet to offer even one verse of Scripture in support of it.

While you are here, please notice how easy it is to use the quote function.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Major B;

Finally, if you will notice, I mainly quoted whole chapters and long passages, not isolated verses, and there were many other verses and long passages that could be quoted. However, I seldom spend much time debating this--that would not be very "calvinistic" of me.

Calvinism can only be supported by Individual clumps of scripture.
You take Eph 1 for instance if not read carefully one might actually think that the predestination here is unalterable. However when you come to verse 4 ;
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him in love,

You find that it actually says we should be holy and blameless.
ss.
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

This predestination is not unalterable as we interpret predestination in our own language. If it weren't then we would be holy just as Jesus is. If we are predestined to the adoption as sons of God like Christ.

To be conformed to his likeness can be nothing else, but his likeness. His likeness on earth is just as it is in heaven. Prefect. I have yet to meet anyone other than Christ who is perfect. If we are to be conformed to His likeness then shouldn't we be like Him on earth as well as in heaven. After all He was perfect here on earth before His death.

Being chosen as in verse 4; is not an individual choosing as Calvinist have come to interpret it but rather is nothing more than the choosing of the gentiles for Salvation because of the rejection of Christ by the Jews. This choosing, (IMO), is all the election there is and in no way insures the Salvation of anyone.

You see Calvinist here @ BB.com have told me that we don't obtain perfection until we see Christ in Heaven. If so then no one is conformed to His likeness because Christ was perfect on earth before His death.

Are we predestined to be like 1 Jn, chap. 3 or is this type of predestination conditional and alterable?
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Major B]

ILUV, I must say this for you, your reading is unique--it is totally inaccurate, but it is unique. The entire chapters I have listed (and more could be attested) cannot be overthrown by a uniquely weird reading, in misinterpreted English, of one verse.

The pains you went to in order to misread the English tranaslation don't change the fact that as 1 Jn 3:1-2 says, we will be like Jesus. We are being conformed to His image (Rom 8:29) and we are going to be holy and blameless.

In Eph 1:3, God has blessed us IN CHRIST--the verb is aorist, it is a done deal in Heaven. Even now, God has BESTOWED FAVOR (also aorist) on us IN the beloved (Eph 1:6)

IN HIM WE HAVE redemption--Eph 1:7--present tense, a present and continuous possession, in the indicative mood, NOT in the subjunctive mood, so there is no doubt, no conditionality about this possession for those who are IN CHRIST...I would go on, but have much to do for the Lord today.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Major B;
God is my Judge for this I'm thankful.
May God Bless You with light;
Mike

 

[JGrayhound]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
The five points of Calvinism are error of the worst sort. Many Calvinists are so messed up that they don't really know if they themselves are saved. So much for Christian assurance. [Romans 8:16]

Mix some truth with a lot of error and many people, who have not studied both sides, will buy it.

This is just garbage.

Do you guys even know the difference between calvinism and hyper-calvinism? Good griwf, some of you are arguing against things you don't even understand. If you can't explain a position properly...do us a favor and just don't say anything.

BTW, the BBN is as misguided as the guy I quoted above. They do not understand theology, and clearly are not astute enough to understand what MacArthur was saying...which is clearly NOT hyper-calvinism.

 

[Nord]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
The five points of Calvinism are error of the worst sort. Many Calvinists are so messed up that they don't really know if they themselves are saved. So much for Christian assurance. [Romans 8:16]

Mix some truth with a lot of error and many people, who have not studied both sides, will buy it.

I am a Calvinist. See it as biblical and logical. I have no question about my salvation and the sovereign grace of God. Name calling will not help your argument.

On the whole I have little interest in changin people's minds as I find endless debates about ti pointless. If there were a knock down punch it would have been delivered and in centuries it has not. Arminianism is more popular at the moment and has even given birth to the Open Theism (logical extension of Arminiansm).

I am fascinated by the arguments that Open Theists make and enjoy Greg Boyd's web site.

MacArthur is a favorite of the bible teacher whose class I attend (Southern Baptist).

Nord