John MacArthur Clears Up Hard To Believe

We have nothing to offer God in exchange for salvation. But when we receive the gift of repentance and faith that results in conversion, we become disciples of Christ willing to lose our lives to find life.

How does MacArthur interpret Gal. 5:16-18? Truly saved individuals have the Spirit, but they still have the flesh as well. Therefore, regenerated believers may walk in the flesh at times in disobedience to the Spirit.

 

Your implying that these jews lined up and made a false confession of faith or something. It doesn't say they claimed to believe on Him. The bible says they believed on Him. Is this not what Jesus told us to do to be saved? Believe on Him?

 

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Paul33,

Uh, no Paul33, it would not be "safe to say that genuine salvation seldom takes place outside of the nurturing relationship of a church!" First you criticize the Catholics for "works salvation" and then proceed to lay out a "works salvation" yourself.

Would you please provide a single verse from scripture that says that "One cannot be saved without becoming a member of the body of Christ which necessitates fellowship with a local body of believers (in most circumstances.)"

Do you really and truly belive this - in "any" circumstance" at all?

Now, the best picture that serves as an example of "Salvation by Grace" and that salvation is a free gift bestowed upon man is in Genesis 3 where it is God that approaches sinful man - not man approaching God, of which he then provides the coats of skin from the animal sacrifice. That's the original gospel of Grace which has endured for all time.

A salvation that says that "One cannot be saved without becoming a member of the body of Christ which necessitates fellowship with a local body of believers is a classic example of works salvation as was in the pre-eating of the fruit in the Garden of Eden!

We are not to neglect fellowship certainly, but please do not tell me that because I cannot find a local church anywhere near driving distance to me that has not become apostate or worldly in it's doctrine that I have to go to one of those churches that have erred from the truth in order to keep my salvation!

I might also add to the conversation that it is not just believing, repenting, asking for forgiveness and fruits that are all a part of that salvation experience, but [we must have the right Christ.[/b] The Mormons, the Catholics, the JW's and many other religions believe and teach thoe things - but they have the wrong Christ!



[ April 22, 2005, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: covenant ]

 

Hi IFB Reformer,

Thanks for your sincere and balanced response. As I said, I cannot speak for Dr. MacArthur. I have his Study Bible which seems to follow Classic Reformed theology (Except for his Dispensationalism).

I have not heard of the Gift Exchange idea. The orthodox Reformed view is that Faith and Repentance are Twin Graces. If one has Faith, one has Repentance toward God. This Faith and Repentance were produced by the Holy Spirit because of the New Birth. It has nothing to do with exchanging anything. A Christian is a new creation. Those who fall away from the Faith and Christ and remain in that condition show themselves to be never born again. Salvation is a one way gift in which we are regenerated and the fruit of this is Faith and Repentance toward Christ and Sanctification (Living a Holy Life).

 

My take on it all... MacArthur, as Swaim said, continues to make careless or somehow edited remarks that causes confusion as to what he believes. As I have said all along, one of the hardest things to get out of people is a simple profane statement. They can't seem to write out a simple profane statement with out in the same stroke explaining that statement, and their explanation only further clouds the issue.

Two things I wanted to say, then will bow out ... first.. when someone becomes saved (by grace thru faith), something happens inside of him. Once that happens, it doesnt matter what WE think and we can argue endlessly, it happened and there is no turning back from it inside of himself. Now, yes,.. he, the believer, can desire to throw up his arms and quit, etc, but once that thing happened inside of him, he is a born-again Christian.
Second, MacArthur and others throw in a VARIABLE, something that I truly believe is the last thing that the Lord wanted, and takes away a sure hope of heaven and hands the issue of judgment to our fellow christians to decide (and inform us of their decision) as to whether or not we are truly saved.
How close does one have to walk to Christ to prove he is saved? How far can he stray before someone shouts out, "You are not saved"? All this variable stuff is something that is thrown in by man. I like I John 5 and the contexts which let us KNOW we have eternal life. Throwing in these Lordship variables might cause a person to truly examine himself, but it also gives our peers a hand in the process of judging whether we are saved or not, eventhough what they think don't count.

tim

tim

 

Tim,
Thanks for your post. I like your point about variables. This is what I usually refer to as the "but" principle. Unfortunately, many cannot allow scripture to stand alone without adding a "but."

Some examples:
1. The thief on the cross was saved BUT don't use him as an example.
2. Paul told the jailer all he had to do was believe BUT I am sure he told him everything else (works, repentence, etc.) later.
3. Smoking is not a sin BUT you should give it up.
4. Drinking is not a sin BUT you should be a teetotaler just to be safe.
5. Jesus said that no man knows the hour BUT please buy all my books or tapes to try to figure out the hour of Christ's return anyway.
6. You are saved by faith alone BUT that faith is never alone without works.

 

Covenant,

Wow! You really read into what others say!

You said:

"Uh, no Paul33, it would not be "safe to say that genuine salvation seldom takes place outside of the nurturing relationship of a church!" First you criticize the Catholics for "works salvation" and then proceed to lay out a "works salvation" yourself."

How did I do that? My point is that without discipleship, so called professions of faith don't seem to take effect!

You said,

"Would you please provide a single verse from scripture that says that 'One cannot be saved without becoming a member of the body of Christ which necessitates fellowship with a local body of believers (in most circumstances.)'"

Do you really and truly belive this - in "any" circumstance" at all?"

I never alleged that one can't become a Christian without joining a local body. That's why I wrote "in most circumstances." So why are you asking me to prove something I don't affirm?

You said,

"Now, the best picture that serves as an example of "Salvation by Grace" and that salvation is a free gift bestowed upon man is in Genesis 3 where it is God that approaches sinful man - not man approaching God, of which he then provides the coats of skin from the animal sacrifice. That's the original gospel of Grace which has endured for all time."

And you think what I wrote disagrees with that?

You said,

"A salvation that says that "One cannot be saved without becoming a member of the body of Christ which necessitates fellowship with a local body of believers is a classic example of works salvation as was in the pre-eating of the fruit in the Garden of Eden!"

Nonsense! I'm merely pointing out what most of us have observed. That professions of faith outside of church discipleship rarely ever result in a sustained faith that perseveres to the end. You of all people should know and believe that.

You said,

"We are not to neglect fellowship certainly, but please do not tell me that because I cannot find a local church anywhere near driving distance to me that has not become apostate or worldly in it's doctrine that I have to go to one of those churches that have erred from the truth in order to keep my salvation!"

Talk about reading into someone's comments thoughts that simply aren't there.

You said,

"I might also add to the conversation that it is not just believing, repenting, asking for forgiveness and fruits that are all a part of that salvation experience, but [we must have the right Christ.[/b] The Mormons, the Catholics, the JW's and many other religions believe and teach thoe things - but they have the wrong Christ!"

No comments necessary.

Covenant, you interpret my comments as poorly as you interpet the Bible!

I think you're trying to pick a fight where none exists.

 

Martin,

As to point 5, I was not accusing MacArthur of this practice.
I was referring to prophecy oriented "ministries" who always employ this "but."

My "but" principle was applied to all of evangelicalism in general.

 

Martin,

As to point 5, I was not accusing MacArthur of this practice.
I was referring to prophecy oriented "ministries" who always employ this "but."

My "but" principle was applied to all of evangelicalism in general.

 

Some people won't be able to in eternity. They won't have a choice by then because they will burning in hell.

 

You are right that MacArthur does not believe in perfectionism - I agree - it would be more accurate to say he believes in "almost-perfectionism".

I do see some places in his books where he speaks of bad habits like the quote you gave. But the majority of the time he speaks as if it were impossible for a Christian to have bad habits with his "pattern of righteousness" teaching in that a true Christian's life will be mostly righteous with only "momments of failure" as he often alludes to.

IFBReformer

 

I would like to share with you about John MacArthur Jr.

First time I heard him when I was a student at Midwestern Baptist College in 1991. A student told me, John MacArthur Jr. says, that he(John) does not believe the blood of Christ of the Calvary is literal for to forgive us our sins, but it is a figurative or symbolic.

Also, I heard that a student from Texas, was kicked out of Midwestern Baptist College, agrued about Christ's blood, because of he agreed with John MacArthur Jr. on blood.

Also, in October 1992, I was supposed attend Emmanuel Baptist Church's 50th Anniversary on Friday evening service to listen Late Dr. Jack Hyles preaching. But I missed it, because I put family first in priority, because I just moved to Ohio in June 1992. That why I have to visit my family. On Sunday, I asked my friend at the church, what Jack Hyles preached from last Friday night? My friend told me, Dr. Hyles preached about warn against John MacArthur Jr. on the blood.

While I was a student at Midwestern Baptist College, I heard John MacArthur Jr. lot. In June 1992, I moved to Ohio for training to become missionary. One day, I visited deaf pastor's house. I saw book, "The Gospel According to Jesus by John MacArthur Jr. on the table in the living room. I picked it up and hold it and asked to deaf pastor while I sat on the couch, and asked him, "What do you think of him?" He told me, "Many againist him, that he does not believe the blood of Christ, but many are misunderstanding what he actually talking about the Christ's blood..."

Few days later, I decided go to Christian bookstore, brought book, "The Gospel According to Jesus" by John F. MacArthur Jr. During that time, I was very strong believe in security salvation similar as 'once saved always saved', because of what Independent Fundamental Baptists(IFB) strongly teaching on security salvation. I thought IFB alwqays teaching & preaching the truths from the Bible, because they are 'fundamentalist'.

I have been reading throoughout that book of MacArthur Jr. I have so many disagreements with his teaching, because I believe in security salvation.

I have read your posts about MacArthur's newest book. You saying that book is reeditional, or revision, to correct mistakes in that new book.

Well.

Let me show you in MacArthur's book, probably you might be shocked what he saying about salvation:

MacArthur's teaching on faith and work seems not clear and mixed on them.

He says:

I think, he means that our salvation is not completely yet, our salvation is a process during throughout our life.

MacArthur discusses about Judas the Iscariot in page 99. He thinks Judas is not a true saved Christian. He says:

I was disagree with him, I wrote down in that book, I says: "Judas was a true disciple before fall!"

MacArthur said of Judas:

. I emphasis word 'growing' with bold by mine. That I do not agree with him. I wrote on that book, and I said: "No! He(include other 11 disciples) was a true apostle"

MacArthur discusses on James chapter 2 about faith and work. He said:

MacArthur said, that person's faith without work is dead, in my mind, he believes a person have faith, but without work is not saved.

MacArthur said:

I wrote down in that book, I said: "Not in KJV!" MacArthur used New American Standard Bible when he wrote that book. Whilst in that time, I read MacArthur's book, I was KJV Onlyist. Now, I am no longer myself as KJV Onlyist.

When I read his comment of John 3:36 in NASV, I disagree with him. I think that he is teaching us that salvation must be include good works by obeying Christ.

There is much mixed in his book on faith and work. Also, he strongly disagree with 'Easy Believism'. He often teaching on 'Lordship Salvation'.

He continues:

MacArthur discusses on Matthew 7:13-14. I had so much disaagree with his teaching on Matt. 7:13-14 whilst myself was securitist before. He said on Matt. 7:13-14:

He continued:

I strong disagree with his intepreting of Matt. 7:13-14. I wrote on that book, as what I said: "John teaches like faith & works try to reach to narrow road to heaven, when get arrive in heaven, then saved! - Wrong!". Understand whilst in that time, myself was a securitist, I strong disagree with his teaching. Later, I realized he was right. BUT.... still he believes in security salvation. Huh??

He continues said:

(emphasis mine)

I strong disagree with his teaching. But, later, I realized he was right.

He said:

MacArthur says, entering the narrow road that we are in warfare, entering the gate is not easy. Also, he says, salvation is not easy.

I said myself in 1992, I think MacArthur misinterpreting what Matt. 7:13-14 & Luke 13:24, what they actual talking about. But later, I realized he was right. But, still he believes in security salvation. HUH???

He continues:

.

Later, I realize he was right, yet he believes in security salvation. HUH??

He said:

He talks about Romans 10:9 on 'Lordship Salvation'.

First, I strong disagree with his interpreting of Romans 10:9. I think that his teaching on salvation is a process and yield to Christ and to follow Christ is a cost of being discipleship is a good works conflict with faith of Eph. 2:8-9. But, later, I realized that he was right. But, still he believes in security salvation, HUH??

He stresses that we ought to follow Christ all the way to the end. Being 'believed' in Christ for salvation is not enough to into heaven. He opposite 'Easy-Believism'. I thought he was wrong on it. But, later I realized that 'Easy-Believism' is error.

If you think that book - "The Gospel According to Jesus" by MacArthur show of mistakes? Then, I would like to hear your feedback and discuss about that book. Also, later I will discuss more about salvation issue.

By the way in year 1993, I went to Christian bookstore. I saw MacArthur's newest book - "Faith and Work", its cover of dark navy with sailboat. That book made me so MAD , I won't buy that book, because I think his teaching on faith and work is so much mixed on Ephesians 2:8-9 and James chapter 2.

But later, I realized he was right. I will like to discuss on faith and work and salvation too. Yet, he believes in security salvation. HUH??? I hear that John MacArthur Jr. is a Calvinist. Obivously, all calvinists believe in the perversance of the saints same as security salvation. No wonder why he believes in security salvation. But I strong disagree with calvinism teaching. Later I will discuss more about salvation issue.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

[ April 22, 2005, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: DeafPosttrib ]

 

Dr. Tim said:

MacArthur, as Swaim said, continues to make careless or somehow edited remarks that causes confusion as to what he believes.

quote from Martin==This was not a mistake by MacArthur, read the note from Grace To You.

**** Yes but this is something that has happened with many of his writings. Some of his statements like the one about the Blood not being needed, etc.. are asking for controversy. He is sometimes not careful with how he presents himself, and sometimes he does not write clearly on matters that could go either way.****


____________________________

Dr. Tim said : Second, MacArthur and others throw in a VARIABLE, something that I truly believe is the last thing that the Lord wanted, and takes away a sure hope of heaven and hands the issue of judgment to our fellow christians to decide (and inform us of their decision) as to whether or not we are truly saved.


Martin==Where does MacArthur say that other Christians determine our assurance of salvation? The Bible informs us of the fruits of true salvation. MacArthur has made it clear, as have others, that this is about self inspection and not "other inspecting". However, clearly, if we see a person who claims to be a Christian living in sin we should take action. And at some point treat them as unsaved....that direction is from Jesus Himself (Matt 18:15-17).

**** Yes, but later on you tell us how we are told in this thread by others who believe as you do that we are to respond to those we think are in sin...etc... so.. in a way, those who follow MacArthur in this pattern of belief indeed will pass judgment as to whether a person is saved or not.*****
________________________________

How close does one have to walk to Christ to prove he is saved?

==This is not about someone having to "prove he is saved". This is about the Biblical standard, what does the Bible say (1) is the needed response for salvation, and (2) is the results of salvation. If our lives do not line up with those two then we are in trouble and need to examine ourselves (2Cor 13:5). Look at the letter of 1John. Over and over and over again the Apostle stresses the fact that our deeds/works express what our true relationship with God is (see 1Jn 2:1-11, 3:7-15, 5:4-5). Jesus Himself made these type statements (Jn 14:18-27). This is not about proving we are saved to anyone, this is about making sure we are saved by (1) making sure we have believed (and are believing) the Biblical Gospel, and (2) that the results of salvation can be seen in our private/public lives.


******Look at your second point.. fruits of salvation. What I am aiming at here is trying to get you to lay things out clearly, give me something concrete, a measuring stick to go by.. not just "results of salvation". How much good works? How far do we stray before we know......? Answer that with something concrete and not a gray variable.****
_________________________________

How far can he stray before someone shouts out, "You are not saved"? All this variable stuff is something that is thrown in by man.

==See above. If someone is living as a homosexual or fornicator we can say he/she is not saved based on the Word of God (1Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, 1Jn 3:9-10, Rev 21:8, etc). Christians can/do sin, we all do, however since we are born of God it is not our lifestyle (1Jn 3:9-10).

***** I disagree because a person who might be living in sin and really going thru hell on earth is a different person from one who is living in sin without guilt.
I sat in the presence of three Ph.D's and had to defend my thesis on the very things we are discussing. Long-standing arguments on issues usually, after some time, come down to a few basic points. One of those points is calling those who teach Lordship Salvation to lay out in clear terms a MEASURING STICK for us to KNOW when Christ has truly been manifested as Lord of our lives, etc.
In the Old Testament, the Law was very clear and people KNEW the Law and they knew when they had crossed the line, things were very clear. That's all I am asking... give me something CONCRETE that we as Christians should use as a MEASURING STICK. "The Bible", some will say, or quote I Cor. 6:9, etc.
Lots more to say , but I am going to see how my questions are answered.

Good topic and let's keep Christ-like attitudes.


Tim

 

I think MacArthurs books are not teaching sinless perfection BUT are a reaction to some Baptists (From my own experience, Fundy Baptists in the past)who took O.S.A.S. to an extreme. Some have taught in not so many words that one who is saved may never show any fruits OR that Sanctification will never occur. That is not only wrong but is heretical.

1 John is clear that those who live lawless lives are not Christians though they may profess they are. I think MacArthur has always made it clear he is not referring to people who struggle with individual sins (Smoking, pride, lust, etc..) but Professing Christians who live Lawless, godless lives and abandon the Church, never show a changed lifestyle etc...and never return or repent show themselves never to be saved. I have not read every comment of MacArthur on this but that is the Classic Reformed view.

"1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. "