John MacArthur Clears Up Hard To Believe

Martin, you have mistook just about everything I said. Maybe someone who speaks English a little better than I do will explain what I am trying to say.

 

Paul33,

No, I was not trying to pick a fight anymore than you can charge Christ with "picking a fight" when he corrected their erroneous beliefs. Your words could not have been more clear. I'll just re-post the whole thing. [emphasis mine]

Paul, I didn't even comment on this error, but, repentance comes before salvation. Scripture was always calling sinners to repentance first. Act 2:38 "Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

I think that was pretty clear Paul. No matter how you revise it, that statement is a statement of "works salvation." Saying, "in most circumstances" doesn't leave very many circumstances out in my opinion!

Paul33, I still challenge you to provide scripture for support of this. I did not misquote you at all. As I said before, would you please provide a single verse from scripture that says that "One cannot be saved without becoming a member of the body of Christ which necessitates fellowship with a local body of believers (in most circumstances.)"

"Seldom" doesn't leave very much room either!

And this comment was uncalled for. "Covenant, you interpret my comments as poorly as you interpet the Bible!

Paul33, you ran from a previous thread when asked to support your claims with scripture but couldn't. So please don't try to turn the tables here and make it seem like I misquoted you. Fight? No, I would much prefer to have error corrected because error spreads like cancer. There is far too much of it.

 

yes but you have mistook everything I have said. I didnt say that others are going to decide who was saved, and who was not, and that MacArthur is talking about how we should treat others who sin.. and you keep saying that its for self-inspection. I just dont think we are on the same plane discussing this. Maybe someone else will come out and explain what I am trying to say. The exact things I am trying NOT to say, you believe I am saying those same things. nothing personal, I just do not think I am making myself clear. Cheers, man
tim

 

Covenant,

What a waste of mind.

 

Covenant,

I said,

"The truth seems to be somewhere in the middle. The gift of salvation produces the fruit of repentance."

You said,

"Paul, I didn't even comment on this error, but, repentance comes before salvation. Scripture was always calling sinners to repentance first. Act 2:38 'Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"
-----------------------------------------------
What error, Covenant? I didn't say salvation comes before repentance. I said that "salvation produces the fruit of repentance." Salvation, which is the result of conversion (repentance and faith), produces fruit - the fruit of repentance!

Secondly, there can be no salvation outside the body of Christ. Since the local body is an expression of the body of Christ, we do a disservice to folks when we tell them that being part of a church has nothing to do with getting saved. Being a part of the body of Christ has everything to do with being saved. Minimizing the need to be part of the local church does not help those who get "converted." The fact is, without being part of a local body of Christ, most will never produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

Acts 2:42-47. There's your scripture! Just keep reading from Acts 2:38.

Once again, I never said that one can't be saved if they don't join a local church. Since you demand so much, show me where I said that? You can't, because I never said it. Like I said, you eisegete my comments as badly as you do the Scriptures.

Covenant, on the other thread, you interpreted Scripture in a way that doesn't deserve an answer. Is that what is bothering you? I didn't run from anything. I'm not obligated to throw my pearl before the swine. When you begin to interpret my comments correctly, I discuss anything you want to discuss. But if I have to correct your mistatements of mine, then I don't have the time to bring you up to speed.

 

Act 2:38 'Then Peter said to them,

Step 1)Repent
Step 2)....and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ
Step 3)....to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"
Step 4).......repentance is what produced the "fruit of salvation!" - not vice versa.

Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Step 1) confess the Lord
Step 2)....believe in the resurrection
Step 3)....... then the "fruit of salvation" is after those steps

Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.

Step 1) believe
Step 2) .....confess
Step 3) ........produces the "fruit of salvation."

Rom 10:13 For everyone, "whoever shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Step 1) call upon the name of the Lord (confession is repentance)
Step 2).....then the "fruit of salvation" takes place

Where do you see "salvation coming before repentance anywhere in scripture? You still have not provided any scripture that says that you get saved and then repent. Do you even know what the "fruit" is? It is the "result" of something - not the origin of it!

Good Paul33! Now, you provided some scripture - but those verses say what they did "after" they were saved. If they had not done those things, would they still have been saved?

Act 2:42 And they were continuing steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine,...

This is also very important, the doctrine was the right doctrine....we are not supposed to stay in a church that does not have the right doctrine - we are commanded to leave it!

Are you always so condesending to people that point out your errors?

Paul, I am not the one that has "sped" away from what scripture clearly says - that is just a smokescreen.

 

Covenant,

You just can't read, can you?

Where did I say the "fruit of salvation" in any of my posts?

One must repent in order to be saved. But after one is saved, the "fruit" of repentance must be present. Truely saved individuals bear good fruit.

And what was my original statement? "The gift of salvation produces the fruit of repentance."

Repentance and Faith = Conversion or Salvation which is manifested by the "fruit" of repentance.

I never said that salvation comes before repentance. Why do you keep accusing me of something I haven't said?

Salvation, which consists of repentance and faith, produces the "fruit" of repentance. Do you get it, yet? We're saying the same thing. Since "of repentance" is confusing you, leave it off. Salvation produces "fruit." Now do you get it?

Talk about disagreeing over something I know you agree with, simply because you are determined to misread someone's statements.

Sped away? You can't even grasp what someone is saying. I would say that you're still parked in the garage.

 

Paul33,

You didn’t! I didn’t say you did! I purposely laid out Acts 2:38, Romans 10, verses 9, 10 and 13 in “Steps” because of the order that the writer wrote them. I was trying to show that the whole conversion experience has a proper sequence to it, of which “the fruit of salvation" was the “result” of the prior steps in the verses quoted.

You are correct however, in saying that “salvation produces “fruit.” We don’t disagree with that. Perhaps it is more of misleading poor grammar to say the “the gift of salvation produces ”the fruit of repentance.” The reason being that the way that you said “salvation produces….” – “salvation” is implied as being the “first” step in the process of conversion and that “repentance” is the second step that occurs in the conversion process. It just seems to send the wrong message to say “the result, or product, of salvation is repentance.” (Your statement was; ”The gift of salvation produces the fruit of repentance.”)

An example would be "the apple."
The seed is repentance.
The fruit is salvation.

I still adamantly take issue with the statement that followed that statement though;

Those are still statements of “works” even if you do qualify it with “most” and “seldom” when you also use “cannot be saved,” …..”necessitates fellowship”….”genuine salvation seldom takes place.”