John MacArthur

[Paul33]

MacArthur's views, whether intended or not, seem to lead folks into legalism and self-righteousness.

 

[BobBixby]

Originally posted by Paul33:
MacArthur's views, whether intended or not, seem to lead folks into legalism and self-righteousness. [/QUOTE

Pretty amazing statement for someone who also said
"I haven't read anything from MacArthur, so I don't know what he is teaching."

 

[Paul33]

Bob,

The statement is in context of what IfbReformer is stating.

Take it for what it is worth, which, is admittedly, not much. It would really help if you would read posts in context.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The easiest way to show the difference is that MacArthur thinks all true Christians will be relatively successful in their walk with Christ - he does not believe in the possiblity of all ranges of Christians.

I have never seen or heard MacArthur say anything even remotely similar to this. In The Gospel According to Jesus he routinely references the fact that Christians sin and do not have perfect patterns of obedience. He frequently acknowledges that Christians exist in all stages of spiritual growth. What he denies, and rightly so, is that Christians never grow.

It is unfortunate to see statements such as yours. That is just not what he has said.

 

[Paul33]

My two cents again, admitting that I haven't read MacArthur's works.

If Pastor Larry's assessment is correct, I would agree with his statement completely. Regenerate Christians will grow, otherwise they aren't regenerated.

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The easiest way to show the difference is that MacArthur thinks all true Christians will be relatively successful in their walk with Christ - he does not believe in the possiblity of all ranges of Christians.

I have never seen or heard MacArthur say anything even remotely similar to this. In The Gospel According to Jesus he routinely references the fact that Christians sin and do not have perfect patterns of obedience. He frequently acknowledges that Christians exist in all stages of spiritual growth. What he denies, and rightly so, is that Christians never grow.

It is unfortunate to see statements such as yours. That is just not what he has said. </font>[/QUOTE]This is a quote from MacArthur's sermon 'The Cost of Discipleship' - you can find it at http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-23.HTM

"The heart of discipleship, beloved, is a commitment to Jesus Christ. That means that you're willing to publicly identified with Him no matter what that cost. That means you're willing to face a hostile world boldly to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and master. Oh, we don't always do it. Even Timothy was dangerously close to being ashamed of Christ. Peter denied Christ. We have those lapses, but a moment of failure doesn't invalidate the disciple's credentials."

"A true disciple loves, a true disciple obeys. We don't love perfectly, we don't obey perfectly. Sometimes we love very imperfectly and disobey, but the pattern of life is obedience and love for the Lord. And even when we fail to love Him, we feel the guilt, we fail to obey Him, we feel the guilt because we do belong to Him. We have that intimate relationship which God has in His grace given to us.

Let me say it again. I do not believe that these are human efforts, I believe that this is what God does in your heart. God gives you a love for Himself. God gives you a heart to obey. God turns you from your sin. They're not pre-salvation human works, they're inherent in God's saving work."

You see in MacArthur's view true Christians will only have "a moment of failure" here and there - "but the pattern of life is obedience and love for the Lord" of anyone who is a true believer. It is clear by MacArthur's use of the words "pattern" that this implies the majority of one's life as Christians will be a consistant one of growth in righteousness. I don't have the quote handy, but he does not believe the process of progressive sanctification can stall. If it does, it proves the person was never saved to begin with.

He also believes that true believers may fail, but only for moments and sometimes. So basically if we see someone who professes Christ and they grow to a certain point, and then don't grow much further, we can right them off as not having saving faith.

From the books and sermons of his that I have read - he does not allow in his thinking for all ranges of Christians.

In MacArthurs view, it would be almost impossible(unless someone was saved on their death bed) for any true Christian to not receive any rewards. Because if all true Christians live a pattern of righteousness and just keep getting better and better, all Christians(except deathbed conversions) would get rewards.

But then what does he do with
1 Corinthians 3:

11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

How is it possible that a Christian, if all Christians lives will patterns of rightouesness, will receive no reward - but will still be saved?

MacArthur just goes right by this in his Study Bible as well.

MacArthur also vehemently denies the possiblity of carnal or backslidden Christians.

IFBReformer

 

[Paul33]

Thanks for the quote.

I don't have any problem with what MacArthur is quoted to having preached. That's what I preach!

He is talking about discipleship. True disciples love and obey, and it is the pattern of the true disciple's life! He admits that disciples fail. But the direction of a regenerate person's life has been forever changed away from self toward God; away from sin in repentance to God in faith.

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Paul33:
Thanks for the quote.

I don't have any problem with what MacArthur is quoted to having preached. That's what I preach!

He is talking about discipleship. True disciples love and obey, and it is the pattern of the true disciple's life! He admits that disciples fail. But the direction of a regenerate person's life has been forever changed away from self toward God; away from sin in repentance to God in faith.

Paul,

You said in a previous post you thought a Christian's growth could stall, but MacArthur does not. MacArthur and his advocates say those of us who do not agree with their view believe Christians don't grow(this is a strawman argument). I have never said that and many on the free grace side don't believe that. All Christians if they are regenerated by God will grow, we agree there. There will be some change - if there is none, than there is proabably no regeneration.

The point is not that growth will occur or not, it is how much and how consistant and can that growth stall. We who oppose MacArthur's view and believe that growth can be little in some Christians, and actually stall after a certain point in others. This is where we believe in all ranges of Christians. This is not the optimal thing, and we certainly would never comfort someone in such a backslidden state that its ok to be that way.

But we would encourage them to continue their growth in the things and ways of the Lord - not because of fear that God will not save them if they don't, but because of love for Christ. After all godliness is profitable not only for the life to come, but also in this life as well.

There is also the discipline side, God does discipline his own, and if someone is saved and in a backslidden state they will not be a happy person - it will eat at them until they obey God and follow his will for their life.

IFBReformer

 

[Paul33]

true.

Do you have a quote from MacArthur where he says the things you attibute to him?

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Paul33:
true.

Do you have a quote from MacArthur where he says the things you attibute to him?

I have to dig up my "The Gospel According to Jesus" by MacArthur to find his stalling comments.
John MacArthur on the topic of Assurance:

"Now let's pick up the rest of them. Number six, do you see a decreasing pattern of sin in your life? Do you see a decreasing pattern of sin in your life? One of the manifestations of holy affections is a decreasing pattern of sin. Chapter 3 verse 5, let's turn to it. This is a powerful powerful section. To be honest with you, we probably won't get past it, but that's all right.

Unbroken patterns of sin are characteristic of the unregenerate. No matter what someone claims, if there is a continual pattern of sin in their life, no different than before they made their claim, then theirs is only a claim and not a reality. When you became a true Christian and you were transformed, the pattern of sin was broken and a new pattern came in to existence, a pattern of obedience, a pattern of righteousness, a pattern of godliness, a pattern of holiness. Holy affections took over. And a believer's life pattern is pursuing holiness."

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/61-9.HTM


Here is a comment he made about carnal christians:

"So carnality is not a permanent state of Christians who have not given Christ Lordship. Carnality is simply a momentary experience of the Believer who is disobedient to God. So it is not a state, it is simply a kind of behavior. And all Christians at any given moment, right now, this moment here, are either Carnal or Spiritual, depending on whether you functioning in the Spirit or in the flesh."

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/70-9-8.htm

He is saying there is no such thing as a carnal christian, but that all Christians can act carnal at moments. It is is impossible in his view for a Christian exist for an long period of time in this carnal state, especially to die in such a state - if they do, they prove they were never saved to begin with.

You see MacArthur uses terms like "pattern" and "momentary" all over his writings to tone down what he is saying and so people won't accuse him of teaching perfectionism. But we all understand what "pattern" means and we all understand what "momentary" means.

I have never said MacArthur teaches perfectionism, I would better term his teachings as almost-perfectionism. Christians may have blips on the screen(moments of sin) but never extended periods of sin, and most certainly if they are truly saved they could never die in a sinful backward state.

IFBReformer

[ March 03, 2005, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: IfbReformer ]

 

[Repent_and_Believe]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Major, The issue with MacArthur is his inconsistent practice of separation. It is one thing to believe the right things and say the right things. It is a completely different thing to practice it and that is where the rub comes in. A fundamentalist does not just believe five things. He practices his faith consistently.

I have a one word reply - BRAVO! You took the words right out of my mouth about MacArthur.

My former pastor considered him one of the foremost leading Bible teachings in certain areas. There is no doubt that he was given Godly talents for the work of the ministry. But he has definitely departed from The Way.

 

[cindig2]

The most miserable man alive is one who is a Christian and not living the life, if he is not miserable, then I would venture to say they never accepted the Lord.
I believe 100% with everything MacArthur teaches.
He is a wonderful Bible Scholar.
Letting someone believe even if they don't care about going to church, etc. that "hey you believe, your ok", is very dangerous. My Bible says to say you are a Christian and not love your brother, you are a liar.
You are dealing with people's eternal destiny, it is to be handled with much, much care.
God will not leave you alone if you are living in sin and are a Christian. If you don't feel regreat, I would say you probably aren't a Christian. Sure, we sin everyday, but to make it your lifestyle is a different matter. You need to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.
I would caution to never give anyone false assurance.

 

[Paul33]

cindig2,

I would echo that. Those who claim to believe who live a lifestyle of sin without a care in the world are fooling themselves. God does and will discipline those who are his.

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by cindig2:
The most miserable man alive is one who is a Christian and not living the life, if he is not miserable, then I would venture to say they never accepted the Lord.
I believe 100% with everything MacArthur teaches.
He is a wonderful Bible Scholar.
Letting someone believe even if they don't care about going to church, etc. that "hey you believe, your ok", is very dangerous. My Bible says to say you are a Christian and not love your brother, you are a liar.
You are dealing with people's eternal destiny, it is to be handled with much, much care.
God will not leave you alone if you are living in sin and are a Christian. If you don't feel regreat, I would say you probably aren't a Christian. Sure, we sin everyday, but to make it your lifestyle is a different matter. You need to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.
I would caution to never give anyone false assurance.

I definitely believe that if someone has truly accepted Christ(if they have been regenerated) there will be change. But as I have said over and over, it is not an argument(at least for me) about whether there will be change - thats a Biblical fact that there will be.

The argument I have with MacArthur, is how much change. He has this magical picture of what he believes a Christian should be, and if someone does not live up to that then we can probably right them off as unsaved.

According to MacArthur, the pattern(or what their actions are most of the time) of any true Christians life is one of continual growth in righteousness.

On a practical level, this means if the person is not getting continually better in his Christian life we can right him off as unsaved. If the person stalls in their Christian growth we can have that person doubt their salvation.

MacArthur's teaching encourages other Christians to go around with a laundry list of items Christians should be doing, and if they are not then they have great cause to doubt their salvation.

This list might look something like this...

If someone does not attend Sunday School, Morning Service, Evening Service, Wednesday night service and calling on Saturday they probably are not saved.

or maybe

If someone does not give what I think they should give then they probably are not saved.

or maybe

If this person has never overcome smoking since they made a proffesion then they are probably not saved.

or maybe this person goes to church regularly, but they have not volenteered for any positions or jobs in the church so they probably are not saved....

I could go on but you get the point...

I have been in churches and seen people who have these mentalities(I used to be one) and I used to agree with MacArthur until really compared what he was saying with what the Bible actually says.

Christ's love compels us to live for him, and not fear, because their is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus - and we were included in Christ when we heard the Word of Truth and having believed, we were indwelled with the Holy Spirit who is our guarentee of salvation.

I am not an easy-believest(such as Hyles group) but I definitely see problems with MacArthur's approach to assurance of salvation.

Generally when I approach someone who claims the name of Christ, I ask them if they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their savior - present tense, because I don't think you can ever loose that belief as it is sealed in you when you believed.

I then ask them about their life and if they have a desire to please the Lord, what has held them back and such.

Ultimately many times I tell people only they know in their heart if they are saved, because only they know if they truly believed and if they truly have the desire toward God.

I will not say, just because they said a prayer 10 years ago they are saved. They may never have really meant it - their faith was not real.(easy-believism)


But on the other side of it, I will not tell someone that simply because they have not been to church in so many years or maybe they have not had victory over this sin or that that they are not saved.(Lordship Salvation)


IFBReformer
http://www.ifbreformation.org/Assurance_MacArthur.aspx

 

[cindig2]

I don't really think John MacArthur believes a person isn't saved if they don't attend S.S., morning worship, eve. worship, Wed. night service and visiting on Sat. I have many of his books, I have never come across anything close to that.
I think probably everyone on this board believes in security of the believer, but, if a person is saved, they are different. As Adrian Rogers puts is, "before I was saved I ran to sin, now I'm running from it".

 

[4His_glory]

Originally posted by Repent_and_Believe:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Major, The issue with MacArthur is his inconsistent practice of separation. It is one thing to believe the right things and say the right things. It is a completely different thing to practice it and that is where the rub comes in. A fundamentalist does not just believe five things. He practices his faith consistently.

I have a one word reply - BRAVO! You took the words right out of my mouth about MacArthur.

My former pastor considered him one of the foremost leading Bible teachings in certain areas. There is no doubt that he was given Godly talents for the work of the ministry. But he has definitely departed from The Way. </font>[/QUOTE]"The Way" refers to salvation, John Mac has not departed from salvation, thats impossible.