John Owen On 2 Peter 3:9

[Rippon]

This is part of the commentary of Owen in his classic : The Death Of Death . (p.348,349)

" The Lord ," saith he ," is long-suffering to us-ward , not willing that any should perish ." Will not common sense teach us that US is to be repeated in both the following clauses , to make them up complete and full , -- namely , " Not willing that any of US should come to repentance ? " Now , who are these of whom the apostle speaks , to whom he writes ? Such as had received "great and precious promises ," chap.1:4 , whom he calls "beloved," chap. 3:1 ; whom he opposeth to the "scoffers" of the "last days," verse 3; to whom the Lord hath respect in the disposal of these days ; who are said to be "elect," Matt.24:22 . Now , truly, to argue that because God would have none of those to perish , but all of them to come to repentance , therefore he hath the same will and mind towards all and every one in the world ( even those to whom he never makes known his will , nor ever calls to repentance , if they never once hear of his way of salvation ) , comes not much short of extreme madness and folly . Neither is it of any weight to the contrary , that they were not all elect to whom Peter wrote : for in the judgment of charity he esteemed them so , desiring them " to give all diligence to make their calling and election sure ," chap. 1:10; even as he expressly calleth those to whom he wrote his former epistle , "elect," chap.1:2 , and a "chosen generation," as well as a "purchased people," chap.2:9 . I shall not need add any thing concerning the contradictions and inextricable difficulties wherewith the opposite interpretation is accompanied ( as, that God should will such to come to repentance as he cuts off in their infancy out of the covenant , such as he hateth from eternity , from whom he hideth the means of grace , to whom he will not give repentance , and yet knoweth that it is utterly impossible they should have it without his bestowing ). The text is clear , that it is all and only the elect whom he would not have to perish .

 

[J.D.]

This is part of the commentary of Owen in his classic : The Death Of Death . (p.348,349)

" The Lord ," saith he ," is long-suffering to us-ward , not willing that any should perish ." Will not common sense teach us that US is to be repeated in both the following clauses , to make them up complete and full , -- namely , " Not willing that any of US should come to repentance ? " Now , who are these of whom the apostle speaks , to whom he writes ? Such as had received "great and precious promises ," chap.1:4 , whom he calls "beloved," chap. 3:1 ; whom he opposeth to the "scoffers" of the "last days," verse 3; to whom the Lord hath respect in the disposal of these days ; who are said to be "elect," Matt.24:22 . Now , truly, to argue that because God would have none of those to perish , but all of them to come to repentance , therefore he hath the same will and mind towards all and every one in the world ( even those to whom he never makes known his will , nor ever calls to repentance , if they never once hear of his way of salvation ) , comes not much short of extreme madness and folly . Neither is it of any weight to the contrary , that they were not all elect to whom Peter wrote : for in the judgment of charity he esteemed them so , desiring them " to give all diligence to make their calling and election sure ," chap. 1:10; even as he expressly calleth those to whom he wrote his former epistle , "elect," chap.1:2 , and a "chosen generation," as well as a "purchased people," chap.2:9 . I shall not need add any thing concerning the contradictions and inextricable difficulties wherewith the opposite interpretation is accompanied ( as, that God should will such to come to repentance as he cuts off in their infancy out of the covenant , such as he hateth from eternity , from whom he hideth the means of grace , to whom he will not give repentance , and yet knoweth that it is utterly impossible they should have it without his bestowing ). The text is clear , that it is all and only the elect whom he would not have to perish .

Rip, who was this John Owens feller? How many souls did he win? Did he baptize a million converts? How big was his church? Did he love people? What did he contribute to world peace? Why should we listen to him?

 

[Rippon]

I know you're joking JD , but others may have the same response in a serious fashion . They should pay attention to him . Owen ( 1616-1683 ) was the greatest of the British Puritans . Only Richard Baxter outdid him in sheer quantity of material written . Owen was the superior theologian . He was a nonconformist and was instrumental in drafting the modification of the Westmister Confession called the Savoy Declaration . The 1689 Baptist Confession is closer to the Savoy than the Westmister Confession .

Owen was a good friend and supporter of John Bunyan . He actually secured his release from prison . Owen admired his preaching -- " I'd gladly relinguish all my learning to preach like that man ."

Roger Nicole , Sinclair Ferguson and J.I. Packer all rate him as a greater influence on their lives than even Jonathan Edwards .

 

[J.D.]

I know you're joking JD , but others may have the same response in a serious fashion . They should pay attention to him . Owen ( 1616-1683 ) was the greatest of the British Puritans . Only Richard Baxter outdid him in sheer quantity of material written . Owen was the superior theologian . He was a nonconformist and was instrumental in drafting the modification of the Westmister Confession called the Savoy Declaration . The 1689 Baptist Confession is closer to the Savoy than the Westmister Confession .

Owen was a good friend and supporter of John Bunyan . He actually secured his release from prison . Owen admired his preaching -- " I'd gladly relinguish all my learning to preach like that man ."

Roger Nicole , Sinclair Ferguson and J.I. Packer all rate him as a greater influence on their lives than even Jonathan Edwards .

You are right, sir - we should should pay attention to him. I'm on my second reading of Death of Death, and it is getting easier to understand, but I still have to skip over the little phrases that are in Greek and Latin.

I didn't know he had any part in the Savoy - wasn't the Savoy was a congregationalist version of the Westminster? Or am I thinking of something else?

 

[psalms109:31]

Actually

The truth of the matter is that is a calling to reach the world with the Gospel, because God does truely want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2
Instructions on Worship
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

 

[IFB Mole]

When that verse is taken is and expounded (exegesis) you will see it as follows: First the verse then the expounded exegesis

God is not slack concerning his promise as some men count slackness but is long suffering to usward, not willing than any should perish but that all should come to repentance

God is not procrastinating concerning the promise of his second coming as the scoffers define procrastination but is very patient to usward - the elect , not willing that any of us - the elect, should perish, but that all of us - the elect, should come into a continual state of repentance (pres, act, ind. in the Greek).

 

[Rippon]

Right On , IFB Mole

Gordon Clark's book " New Heavens , New Earth " is good with this verse .

If it had been fully realized that Peter was addressing Christians , a great deal of theological confusion would have been avoided . Arminians have used the verse in defense of their theory of universal atonement . They believe that God willed to save every human being without exception and that something beyond his control happened so as to defeat his eternal purpose .
The doctrine of universal redemption is not only refuted by Scripture generally , but the passage in question makes nonsense on such a view .
Since God has made and appointed the wicked for the day of evil , as in 2:3 ,4 have already said , as 2:9 virtually implies , and as is distinctly stated in Romans 9:17-22 , 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 , or as Proverbs 16:4 says , " The Lord has made everything for its own end , yea even the wicked for the day of evil ," it follows that God does not will the salvation of every member of the human race . It is not his will that every man without exception should repent . Repentance is a gift of God , and if God willed to , he would give everyone repentance . But obviously he does not . So much for the Scripture in general .

 

[Rippon]

Continuing On Page 230 and 231 Of Clark

The verse 3:9 would make no sense otherwise . Peter is telling us that Christ's return awaits the repentance of certain people . Now , if Christ's return awaited the repentance of every individual without exception , Christ would never return . Already many have died unrepentant , and their number grows larger every day . The only time when every individual had come to repentance was when Adam and Eve repented and were clothed with skins . The Arminians , unwittingly to be sure , imply that Christ should have returned them -- his second advent antedating his first .
This is no new interpretation. The Similitudes viii,xi, 1 in the Shepherd of Hermas ( c. A.D. 130-150 ) , which because of the date serves as evidence for the epistle's authenticity , says " But the Lord , being long-suffering , wishes [ thelei] those who were called [ ten klesin ten genomenen ] through his Son to be saved ." This quotation shows how the verse was understood in the second century . It is the called or elect whom God wills to save .

 

[Rippon]

Francis Turrentine : Institutio Theologiae ...

Elencticae , p. 96 on 2 Peter 3:9

The will of God here spoken of should not be extended further than to the elect and believers , for whose sake God puts off the consumation of ages , until their number shall be completed . This is evident from the pronoun US which precedes , with sufficient clearness designating the elect and believers , as elsewhere more than once , and to explain which he adds , not willing that any , that is , of us , should perish .

 

[Rippon]

John Gill , The Cause Of God And Truth pgs.62,63

It is not true that God is not willing any one individual of the human race should perish , since he has made and appointed the wicked for the day of evil , even ungodly men , who were fore-ordained to this condemnation , such as are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction ; yea , there are some to whom God sends strong delusions , that they may believe a lie , that they all might be damned ... Nor is it his will that all men , in this large sense , should come to repentance , since he withholds from many both the means and grace of repentance ...

 

[Grasshopper]

Lets see what his statement on verse 11 is:

'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state
'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly." (Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11, Works, folio, 1721.).

 

[Rippon]

This is part of the commentary of Owen in his classic : The Death Of Death . (p.348,349)

" The Lord ," saith he ," is long-suffering to us-ward , not willing that any should perish ." Will not common sense teach us that US is to be repeated in both the following clauses , to make them up complete and full , -- namely , " Not willing that any of US should come to repentance ? " Now , who are these of whom the apostle speaks , to whom he writes ? Such as had received "great and precious promises ," chap.1:4 , whom he calls "beloved," chap. 3:1 ; whom he opposeth to the "scoffers" of the "last days," verse 3; to whom the Lord hath respect in the disposal of these days ; who are said to be "elect," Matt.24:22 . Now , truly, to argue that because God would have none of those to perish , but all of them to come to repentance , therefore he hath the same will and mind towards all and every one in the world ( even those to whom he never makes known his will , nor ever calls to repentance , if they never once hear of his way of salvation ) , comes not much short of extreme madness and folly . Neither is it of any weight to the contrary , that they were not all elect to whom Peter wrote : for in the judgment of charity he esteemed them so , desiring them " to give all diligence to make their calling and election sure ," chap. 1:10; even as he expressly calleth those to whom he wrote his former epistle , "elect," chap.1:2 , and a "chosen generation," as well as a "purchased people," chap.2:9 . I shall not need add any thing concerning the contradictions and inextricable difficulties wherewith the opposite interpretation is accompanied ( as, that God should will such to come to repentance as he cuts off in their infancy out of the covenant , such as he hateth from eternity , from whom he hideth the means of grace , to whom he will not give repentance , and yet knoweth that it is utterly impossible they should have it without his bestowing ). The text is clear , that it is all and only the elect whom he would not have to perish .

Amen to what John Owen wrote. I trust that some BB'ers will pay prayerful attention.

 

[Robert Snow]

To quote Gill: "comes not much short of extreme madness and folly."

This not only describes Gill's commentary on this passage, but Calvinism in general. They take the plain teachings of scripture and twist them to say what they do not say.

Give a Christian a New Testament, and let him read it. Then, without any outside input see if they come up with this thing called Calvinism. It takes a cleverly designed twisting of the Word of God to find most points of TULIP in any of God's Word!

When God says He's not willing that any should perish, I believe He means what he says. No need to pull a cloak of confusion over it to make it say what it does not say. Just believe God!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

To quote Gill: "comes not much short of extreme madness and folly."

This not only describes Gill's commentary on this passage, but Calvinism in general. They take the plain teachings of scripture and twist them to say what they do not say.

Give a Christian a New Testament, and let him read it. Then, without any outside input see if they come up with this thing called Calvinism. It takes a cleverly designed twisting of the Word of God to find most points of TULIP in any of God's Word!

When God says He's not willing that any should perish, I believe He means what he says. No need to pull a cloak of confusion over it to make it say what it does not say. Just believe God!

Put a child in front of a piano & expect him to compose a symphony & see what happens. But raise the child with a good education & perhaps he will have an appreciation for the beautiful music that can come out of it. That in short requires Edu, practice....as well as appreciation. To me, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, Whitfield etc were beautiful composers of God's great & wonderful music. Of course, you'd have to have some practiced skill yourself & mostly appreciation for the music.

 

[kyredneck]

kyredneck on 2 Peter 3:9

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1620348#post1620348

Lets see what his statement on verse 11 is:

'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state
'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly." (Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11, Works, folio, 1721.).

EXCELLENT POST GRASSHAPPAH !!

 

[Rippon]

To quote Gill:"Now truly,to argue that because God would have none of those to perish,but all of them to come to repentance,therefore he hath the same will and mind towards all and every one in the world (even those to whom he never makes known his will,nor ever calls to repentance,if they never once hear of his way of salvation),comes not much short of extreme madness and folly."

Good quote.Thanks.

Calvinism in general. They take the plain teachings of scripture and twist them to say what they do not say.

On the contrary. I do not find Calvinists guilty of the warning: "ignorant and unstable people distort,as they do the other Scriptures,to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16b)

It takes a cleverly designed twisting of the Word of God to find most points of TULIP in any of God's Word!

For the umpteenth time :Calvinism doesn't = T.U.L.I.P. Calvinism ranges over the entirety of the Bible.

However, the five propositions are most certainly in the Word of God. It has been demonstrated time after time to you and other hard-headed posters.

 

[asterisktom]

Give a Christian a New Testament, and let him read it.

And here is a big part of the problem today.

Give a Christian a whole Bible and he will more likely see that connectivity that Calvinists have seen. One of the great values of John Owen is that he has dug deeply into both Covenants and shown that unity that leads to Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

And here is a big part of the problem today.

Give a Christian a whole Bible and he will more likely see that connectivity that Calvinists have seen. One of the great values of John Owen is that he has dug deeply into both Covenants and shown that unity that leads to Christ.

It's good to see you back posting here Tom. I hope all has been well with you.

......and AMEN!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And here is a big part of the problem today.

Give a Christian a whole Bible and he will more likely see that connectivity that Calvinists have seen. One of the great values of John Owen is that he has dug deeply into both Covenants and shown that unity that leads to Christ.

Huh, wasnt John Owen a Calvinist?

 

[kyredneck]

Huh, wasnt John Owen a Calvinist?

EWF, yes he was. Tom's not denying that fact at all.