John Owen On 2 Peter 3:9

[Van]

Yet another claim that my understanding is the problem. See the pattern. Generalized claims of mixed thoughts and confused positions. That is all they have folks, evade, change the subject and personal attack. Then claim the nonsense posted in the past but not referenced, was specific and logical. Horse feathers.

Why would God cause the previously chosen elect to be born over a long time rather than a short time, if the result in the delay did not alter the number saved, but only increased the number lost? The idea is nonsense, Calvinist nonsense.

2 Peter 3:9 says God is delaying coming in judgment in order to give believers time to help win more of the lost to God. This view is not confused, or mixed up or whatever baseless charge the next Calvinist will hurl to evade the obvious.

 

[Rippon]

Why would God cause the previously chosen elect to be born over a long time rather than a short time, if the result in the delay did not alter the number saved, but only increased the number lost? The idea is nonsense, Calvinist nonsense.

The fact is that the Lord did not return in the first century. His elect ones are scattered throughout the centuries. In a certain family line there may be only a few who are elect. The few may be scattered over any number of generations.

The Lord doesn't go along with Van's theories as to how to properly administer things. The Lord knows far better than you. That's why He hasn't "front-loaded" the elect.

'Why would God" is not something you should utter.

 

[Van]

Yet the same evasion, the question does not question God but Calvinism. But the Calvinist posts as if it questions God. Evasion pure and simple. And why the evasion of the obvious? Calvinism is false doctrine springs to mind. Why would Calvinism claim to know that "God sprinkled all the elect over lots of generations" which would result in more of the lost perishing when God does not desire that any should perish. One nonsensical evasion after another is all they have folks. 2 Peter 3:9 says God is delaying to give believers time to help win more of the lost to God. Only if our choice is volitional does delay make sense. If our choice is a foregone conclusion, delay makes no sense. And since God is not a God of confusion, the answer must be Calvinism is wrong, and our choice is volitional.

 

[Rippon]

Why would Calvinism claim to know that "God sprinkled all the elect over lots of generations" which would result in more of the lost perishing when God does not desire that any should perish.

[snip - personal attacks are not permitted] I'll say again,God's elect are not only from the first century AD,but from centuries long before Cjrist's incarnation and long after His ascension. As a Christian you are elect. Why would you rather have God front-end load His elect?

Many non-elect throughout the centuries have perished in their sins and yet God is not at fault. Do you cast blame upon the Lord for the multipled millions who have gone into a Christless eternity?

2 Peter 3:9 says God is delaying to give believers time to help win more of the lost to God.

Perhaps it "says" that in Van's Version --but in no other.

 

[JesusFan]

Yet another evasion coupled with an attack on me personally. That is all the Calvinists have, evade and attack.

Why would God delay calling who he previously elected? No answer will be forthcoming.

No, the only answer that makes sense is that God is waiting for us to help bring more lost people into the fold. This makes sense if our actions are volitional and the response of those who hear the call are volitional. Then the delay makes sense. But for God to delay bringing about a foregone outcome makes no sense. So it is not God, but Calvinism that says we should accept nonsense. And that is a blasphemous notion.

God has His definite plans for this earth, and for his people though van...

He IS indeed long suffering, as he had the right to destroy ALL of us and allow ALL of us to get our "just rewards" into the lake of Fire...

Are you asking why jesus didn't justcome back and bring everything to pass in First century, sparing all lost souls since his ascension to heaven?

Again, you might want to read what the prophet Isaiah and Apostle paul said concerning that the Lord ways and thoughts are WAY above ours, and who are we, mere motes of dust, to try to play God in his place?

last one who tried to play God and second guess his reasons and ways was ole satan himself, and how did that work out for him?

 

[Van]

Hi Jesusfan, do not put forth that I should accept nonsense because God's way is way beyond my way. God's revelation is put forth so that we can understand it, and since He is our creator, He knows how to reveal himself such that we can understand His divine attributes and attitudes. Like, Holy, Just and Merciful.

Calvinism makes no sense, and to say that is ok because it may be right because we are unable to understand it, is nonsense squared.

 

[JesusFan]

Hi Jesusfan, do not put forth that I should accept nonsense because God's way is way beyond my way. God's revelation is put forth so that we can understand it, and since He is our creator, He knows how to reveal himself such that we can understand His divine attributes and attitudes. Like, Holy, Just and Merciful.

Calvinism makes no sense, and to say that is ok because it may be right because we are unable to understand it, is nonsense squared.

just curious to why it is not possible that God is indeed beyond us to understand?
The Bible is God "wriiten down" to our levels, but would you not agree that he still is literally beyond us fully understanding and knowing at least while here on earth?

what is the "main beef" that you have with Calvinism?

 

[Van]

Hi Jesusfan, my main beef with Calvinism is it is unbiblical and hinders the ministry of Christ. It divides the body.

Here are a few examples. You took what I said and wrote why it is not possible that God is indeed beyond us to understand? This does not reflect what I said in the slightest. I said "God's way is way beyond my way." Therefore that is not in question, yet you questioned it wasting my time to refute your insinuation. What I said is there is not reason to accept Calvinism's nonsense on the basis that God is way beyond my way. Calvinism is making statements about God which are contrary to God's understandable revelation.

Calvinism takes biblical truth and goes too far, plunging into error.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yet another claim that my understanding is the problem.

If there are many such claims, maybe you should consider why this keeps happening.
See the pattern.
Yes...we see a pattern in your posts....in your words;

claims of mixed thoughts and confused positions



That is all they have folks,

Van....it is the "folks" who are posting to you!

Then claim the nonsense posted in the past but not referenced, was specific and logical. Horse feathers.

Many have given you biblical responses which you seem unable or unwilling to process

Why would God cause the previously chosen elect to be born over a long time rather than a short time, if the result in the delay did not alter the number saved, but only increased the number lost? The idea is nonsense, Calvinist nonsense.

This is somewhat incoherent



2 Peter 3:9 says God is delaying coming in judgment in order to give believers time to help win more of the lost to God. This view is not confused, or mixed up or whatever baseless charge the next Calvinist will hurl to evade the obvious.

Yes...it is confused humanistic philosophy,that accuses God of incorrect judgement.

Van....you will not come to truth this way.

 

[Van]

Folks, post 89 simply repeats the personal attacks, saying there is something wrong with the person who says Calvinism is false doctrine. Note the absence of any substance, only the claim of substance posted in the unreferenced past. See the pattern?

2 Peter 3:9 says God is waiting to bring His judgment, which He has promised, to give us - believers - time to help win more of the lost to Christ. "God's seeming delay in bring about the consummation of all things is a result not of indifference but of patience in waiting for all who will come to repentance." So the "not wishing that any should perish" refers to the lost, not those He is being patient with.

Therefore 2 Peter 3:9 agrees with all the other verses that say God does not desire that any should perish, but that all should come to a knowledge of the truth. Thus Christ died for all men, which by logical necessity means the Calvinistic view of the work of the cross is false doctrine.

 

[Rippon]

In verse 9 where the Lord says He is 'patient toward you" do you think that refers to everyone?

Do you think that "not wishing any to perish" but "all to come to repentance" means anyone of the entire human race?

"You" "any" and "all" are referencing the very same group of people.

Peter is writing to a particular group --not every person who has and shall live. The NASB has "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours" (2 Peter 1:1). In chapter 3 has the audience he addresses changed,or is Peter still talking to believers?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In verse 9 where the Lord says He is 'patient toward you" do you think that refers to everyone?

Do you think that "not wishing any to perish" but "all to come to repentance" means anyone of the entire human race?

"You" "any" and "all" are referencing the very same group of people.

Peter is writing to a particular group --not every person who has and shall live. The NASB has "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours" (2 Peter 1:1). In chapter 3 has the audience he addresses changed,or is Peter still talking to believers?

Absolutely right! Good post, Rip.

Steve

 

[Van]

Reply to Rippon

In verse 9 where the Lord says He is 'patient toward you" do you think that refers to everyone?

Do you think that "not wishing any to perish" but "all to come to repentance" means anyone of the entire human race?

"You" "any" and "all" are referencing the very same group of people.

Peter is writing to a particular group --not every person who has and shall live. The NASB has "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours" (2 Peter 1:1). In chapter 3 has the audience he addresses changed,or is Peter still talking to believers?

In verse 9 where the Lord says He is 'patient toward you" do you think that refers to everyone? No, and I said so. So the question is absurd, a diversion from fruitful discussion.

Do you think that "not wishing any to perish" but "all to come to repentance" means anyone of the entire human race? Yes.

Peter has not changed his audience, and again no one is claiming he has, so yet more sand tossed in the air to hide the obvious.

Have the elect "reached repentance" or come to repentance? Of course they have. So the any must not refer to his audience of believers, but to future believers that have not yet come to repentance. So the idea that the same group of people are in view is a logical impossibility, yet Calvinism says accept it, cause although we understand it, it is way beyond your understanding. Horse feathers. Paul said much the same thing in 1 Timothy 2:4 which says God desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

So the delay is to allow current believers time to help win more of the lost to God.

 

[Skandelon]

In verse 9 where the Lord says He is 'patient toward you" do you think that refers to everyone?

Can you explain why God would need to be patient with his elect since its all up to God to save them? Is He being patient with Himself or them?

 

[preacher4truth]

Saying that Peter must remain strict only to his immediate audience is shallow thinking.

This is straining the context. Actually strangling it.

Obviously they've experienced repentance, and it's also obvious scoffers came around mocking the 2nd coming, and the promise thereof, and he is addressing this, and applying a principle. God was longsuffering to his immediate audience, until they themselves came to repentance. In addressing the scoffers (what they were saying) he explains via the Holy Spirit that God is yet doing the same thing He had done for them in His Grace: awaiting others also, as He had them, to come to repentance.

I give the Holy Spirit and Peter more freedom than having to stay only to this strict audience.

God awaits others to come to repentance. This is why it seems He has delayed His Son in coming.

 

[Rippon]

Al Scripture Taken From 2011 NIV

2 Peter 3:9 :"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise,as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you,not wanting anyone to perish,but everyone to come to repentance."

The patience of the Lord is shown toward His elect ones the "you" of verse 9). So,the "not wanting anyone to perish" has to be confined to the elect. The words "everyone to come to repentance" is the same group of people --the elect.

The bottom line here is that the Lord is delaying His second coming in order that all the elect of the Lord can be gathered in. God's purpose all through the centuries has been to gather in His elect ones. His infallible purpose and design is that all of His elect will come to repentance. And thus it will be.

 

[Skandelon]

The bottom line here is that the Lord is delaying His second coming in order that all the elect of the Lord can be gathered in. God's purpose all through the centuries has been to gather in His elect ones. His infallible purpose and design is that all of His elect will come to repentance. And thus it will be.

So, your contention is that God is delaying His second coming to give himself enough time to effectually call all his elect? That means he is patient with himself, right? Doesn't the verse say he is patient with them?

 

[Van]

Right on Skandelon, and in addition, if they were elect, they could not perish. Unless Rippon's position is the elect can perish. I mean if He had elected some folks who had not yet been born, and He came, why wouldn't those elect join those that died before birth, and be given faith, yet another Calvinist absurdity. You see how the whole premise unravels? The delay only makes sense if we volitionally choose to help win others for Christ, and those who are lost volitionally choose to trust in Christ. Then God would delay, being patient and longsuffering, because He does not desire that any should perish, but all should come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Rippon]

God wills that all come to repentance. God grants repentance as 2 Timothy 2:5 and other passages say. The Lord's will and purpose shall be done,and it is done with the elect. Every single elect person will come to repentance before the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[preacher4truth]

God wills that all come to repentance. God grants repentance as 2 Timothy 2:5 and other passages say. The Lord's will and purpose shall be done,and it is done with the elect. Every single elect person will come to repentance before the Second Coming of Christ.

Yep, the Book has been written, and the predeterminate counsel of Holy God is in motion.