John Owen On 2 Peter 3:9

[Skandelon]

Rippon, with all due respect, I don't believe your reply answered my question. Is God being patient with them (his elect) or with himself?

The passage says He is patient with them, so my question is, "What is he waiting on from them if indeed 'it is all of God?'"

Now, I'm being patient with you, waiting for you to reply to that question.

 

[JesusFan]

Rippon, with all due respect, I don't believe your reply answered my question. Is God being patient with them (his elect) or with himself?

The passage says He is patient with them, so my question is, "What is he waiting on from them if indeed 'it is all of God?'"

Now, I'm being patient with you, waiting for you to reply to that question.

the Lord has a definite schedule for all things to be accomplished in History, including as to when His last elected saint will be brought into Body of Christ...

The work of salvation is all from the Lord, but he also requires men who are saved to repent and trust in faith in Christ and become saved...

He is basically waiting on His history that has already been preordained to come to passing in what we see as being History...

the elct still have to exercise personal faith in jesus in order to be saved by God, its NOT like we are puppets on His strings!

 

[Skandelon]

the Lord has a definite schedule for all things to be accomplished in History, including as to when His last elected saint will be brought into Body of Christ...

The work of salvation is all from the Lord, but he also requires men who are saved to repent and trust in faith in Christ and become saved...

He is basically waiting on His history that has already been preordained to come to passing in what we see as being History...

So, he is waiting on Himself (his plan in history). He is not being patient with them, just with his plan, right?

 

[Rippon]

Rippon, with all due respect, I don't believe your reply answered my question. Is God being patient with them (his elect) or with himself?

The passage says He is patient with them, so my question is, "What is he waiting on from them if indeed 'it is all of God?'"

Now, I'm being patient with you, waiting for you to reply to that question.

The Lord is patient with His elect. He is longsuffering toward them. He has had to put up with the non-elect all this time. But for the sake of the elect (for their benefit) He will not come any earlier.

 

[Van]

So you are saying God is being patient, longsuffering with the non-elect, so that the elect will not perish. Hangs together nicely. Not!

 

[Skandelon]

The Lord is patient with His elect. He is longsuffering toward them.

So, he isn't patient with the non-elect, just the elect?

If so, why does Paul say, "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?"

And what he is waiting on from them? Is He waiting for them to do what He effectually causes them to do? How does that work?

 

[DHK]

God wills that all come to repentance. God grants repentance as 2 Timothy 2:5 and other passages say. The Lord's will and purpose shall be done,and it is done with the elect. Every single elect person will come to repentance before the Second Coming of Christ.

However, if the verse states that the Lord is "longsuffering, not willing that any of them shall perish, then your view comes to the logical conclusion of a denial in the eternal security of the believer. God is not willing that any of the elect should lose their salvation, and therefore is patient with them. This leaves open the door of possibility to losing one's salvation.

 

[Rippon]

However, if the verse states that the Lord is "longsuffering, not willing that any of them shall perish, then your view comes to the logical conclusion of a denial in the eternal security of the believer. God is not willing that any of the elect should lose their salvation, and therefore is patient with them. This leaves open the door of possibility to losing one's salvation.

Only in your furtive imagination DHK.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture Citations From The 2011 NIV

So you are saying God is being patient, longsuffering with the non-elect, so that the elect will not perish. Hangs together nicely.

Yes it does. And when you look at verse 15a of the same chapter : Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation"

Peter is referecing the elect. Go back to verse 11:"what kind of people ought you to be?"

Verse 13 ;"we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth."

Verse 14 :"So then,dear friends'

The elect are in view all along here. The Lord is being patient,not hurrying His Second Coming until all of His elect ones are gathered in.

 

[JesusFan]

So, he isn't patient with the non-elect, just the elect?

If so, why does Paul say, "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?"

And what he is waiting on from them? Is He waiting for them to do what He effectually causes them to do? How does that work?

It works something like this...

Eternity past, God foreordained/pedetermined those on whom he would show His grace and mercy upon, those chose them out of reprobate humanity, in order to enable them to receive by faith jesus Christ...

the Lord knows ALL whom He has elected to Eternal Life, and the time WHEN they shall receive Him as redeemer, so all things work according to His Soverign timing and Plans in History..

And God could NOT "have shoertened" the time period, as he still has the End days coming, Great Tribulation, second Coming etc and ALL those things will occur at the right times that he purposed them to be!

 

[DHK]

Only in your furtive imagination DHK.

Instead of a personal attack why not answer the post.
Either the verse refers to all, not just the elect, or the elect are in danger of losing their salvation, which is it?

 

[JesusFan]

However, if the verse states that the Lord is "longsuffering, not willing that any of them shall perish, then your view comes to the logical conclusion of a denial in the eternal security of the believer. God is not willing that any of the elect should lose their salvation, and therefore is patient with them. This leaves open the door of possibility to losing one's salvation.

No, its that God has ordained set a time for the end of all things, Second Coming etc and that He will allow time before all those things to come to pass, so that ALL that were elcted to receive Christ may receive Him!

And since God Himself has destined His very elect in Christ to be saved"none shall perish" how there even be a doubt of eternal security?

 

[DHK]

No, its that God has ordained set a time for the end of all things, Second Coming etc and that He will allow time before all those things to come to pass, so that ALL that were elcted to receive Christ may receive Him!

And since God Himself has destined His very elect in Christ to be saved"none shall perish" how there even be a doubt of eternal security?

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

There is no doubt that the "elect" will be saved. That is why Rippon's, et. al., interpretation is not only redundant but doesn't make sense. It is like saying: "I know my pastor is saved therefore I am not willing that he should perish and I am praying that he will repent."
Does that make sense to you?

Do you pray for the saved to get saved?
Do you pray for the saved members of your church that they should not perish but should come to repentance?
The only reason that you would do that is if you believe that they were in imminent danger of sinning, and that sin would cause them of losing their salvation. Thus Rippon's view teaches a denial of OSAS.

The verse states a desire of God. It is God's desire that all should be saved.
It is God's desire that none should perish.
It is God's desire that all should come to repentance.

What does the Bible say elswhere?
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezekiel 33:11)

The same thought is expressed here. God does not delight in the death of the wicked. He would rather see them come to repentance. It is the same thought in 2Pet.3:9
--That is his desire. Will that desire be accomplished? No. Why? Because of the holiness and justice of God, and because of the depravity and wickedness of the human heart which continues to reject the goodness and love of an Almighty Creator.

 

[preacher4truth]

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

There is no doubt that the "elect" will be saved. That is why Rippon's, et. al., interpretation is not only redundant but doesn't make sense. It is like saying: "I know my pastor is saved therefore I am not willing that he should perish and I am praying that he will repent."
Does that make sense to you?

Do you pray for the saved to get saved?
Do you pray for the saved members of your church that they should not perish but should come to repentance?
The only reason that you would do that is if you believe that they were in imminent danger of sinning, and that sin would cause them of losing their salvation. Thus Rippon's view teaches a denial of OSAS.

The verse states a desire of God. It is God's desire that all should be saved.
It is God's desire that none should perish.
It is God's desire that all should come to repentance.

What does the Bible say elswhere?
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezekiel 33:11)

The same thought is expressed here. God does not delight in the death of the wicked. He would rather see them come to repentance. It is the same thought in 2Pet.3:9
--That is his desire. Will that desire be accomplished? No. Why? Because of the holiness and justice of God, and because of the depravity and wickedness of the human heart which continues to reject the goodness and love of an Almighty Creator.

Oh boy...

Before you go busting rippons chops about personal attacks, perhaps you should practice what you preach?

And you're now claiming repentance for salvation? I see, when it's convenient, then you wrangle the word for your own benefit?

All of a sudden 2 Peter 3:9 is gospel, and salvific. Wow. Before it wasn't to you and you said repentance is no longer necessary, but then, you go back to Ezekiel, and pull out a verse concerning repentance, and imply it is necessary to salvation after all. Now you agree that repentance is necessary. Isn't it wonderful? :thumbsup:

Double standard friend? Certainly, from you. And all this time you argued that all they needed to do was come to belief, and that repentance was done away with after Acts. Baloney. But hey, at least your doctrine is beginning to slowly come around to being more Biblical.

Yes, we know, infinite God must reduce to your logic, or it must not be true, "eh?"

Congratulations. :wavey:

 

[Rippon]

However, if the verse states that the Lord is "longsuffering, not willing that any of them shall perish, then your view comes to the logical conclusion of a denial in the eternal security of the believer. God is not willing that any of the elect should lose their salvation, and therefore is patient with them. This leaves open the door of possibility to losing one's salvation.

Your conjecture is about as silly as saying :"Well since ostriches have wings they must fly."

No Calvinist denies the eternal security of the believer i.e. the elect. The Lord is waiting for the proper time so that all of His elect ones will have been gathered in. How you get that this verse somehow mitigates against the eternal security of the believer is something only you (and your cohorts)could dream up. No Calvinist thus reasons about this passage.

He's not willing means that they will not perish. No ifs,ands,or buts about it.

 

[DHK]

you said repentance is no longer necessary,

I never said that. But go back and learn what repentance is before you engage in this discussion. Learn the basics first.

 

[preacher4truth]

Your conjecture is about as silly as saying :"Well since ostriches have wings they must fly."

No Calvinist denies the eternal security of the believer i.e. the elect. The Lord is waiting for the proper time so that all of His elect ones will have been gathered in. How you get that this verse somehow mitigates against the eternal security of the bleiever is something only you (and your cohorts)could dream up. No Calvinist thus reasons about this passage.

He's not willing means that they will not perish. No ifs,ands,or buts about it.

Yes. Amen. He basques in eisegetical analysis. He sees things that are not there, and brings in things by the truckload and pours them into the text.

How he arrives at his conclusions is frankly startling.

 

[preacher4truth]

I never said that. But go back and learn what repentance is before you engage in this discussion. Learn the basics first.

Baloney. Uh, yeah you did. You said it by implication also, and that we only need to come to belief. You also said Acts is historical and that repentance is no longer necessary. You even mocked several for saying it is necessary. Two threads worth, son. Then the thread was closed by Dr. Bob stating a gospel without repentance is a false Gospel.

And stop the condescending personal attacks, yes?

And save your fabrications for someone else, "eh?"

You also mocked God's Grace.

 

[DHK]

Your conjecture is about as silly as saying :"Well since ostriches have wings they must fly."

No Calvinist denies the eternal security of the believer i.e. the elect. The Lord is waiting for the proper time so that all of His elect ones will have been gathered in. How you get that this verse somehow mitigates against the eternal security of the bleiever is something only you (and your cohorts)could dream up. No Calvinist thus reasons about this passage.

He's not willing means that they will not perish. No ifs,ands,or buts about it.

Without answering my post directly, the logic presented to you, or the other Scripture, you simply dismiss even the very wording of this verse. This is really amazing.

Words have meaning.
God is not willing that any should perish.
God's will is that all should be saved.

Two direct statements from Scripture about the will of God, and a third one in Ezekiel "God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked."

You unbelief here is astounding.
God desires all to be saved. The only reason they won't is because of the hardness of their own depraved hearts.

 

[JesusFan]

Without answering my post directly, the logic presented to you, or the other Scripture, you simply dismiss even the very wording of this verse. This is really amazing.

Words have meaning.
God is not willing that any should perish.
God's will is that all should be saved.

Two direct statements from Scripture about the will of God, and a third one in Ezekiel "God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked."

You unbelief here is astounding.
God desires all to be saved. The only reason they won't is because of the hardness of their own depraved hearts.

Question though....

Does "ALL" always mean all in the senses of "each and every person?"
Can it be that "All" is the desired will/permitted of God, yet the absolute is that 'some" will come?

Again, are we sure that we reading into this our "Arminian" theology, and not seeingit in light of ALL of the scriptures concerning salvation?