John Piper

[Iconoclast]

Van

Then Piper teaches than non-Calvinists believe we accomplish our own new birth, but the truth is we believe God causes us to be born again, 1 Peter 1:3 through the resurrection of Christ from the dead. So he either does not know his bible, or is willing to misrepresent others.

Yes....i am sure John Piper is reading BB...hoping to read van's posts to help him understand his bible:laugh::laugh:

 

[Van]

You can keep your LOL. If you paid attention, you'd see that I am talking about your rhetoric in regards to the books mentioned. They have nothing to do w/ Limited Atonement.

And by the way, the gospel is unattractive. That's why Paul called it foolish and scandalous. I have no problem saying that Jesus died for his people in my gospel presentation. I also have no problem telling them that God's grace is no a potentiality left in their hands but an actuality for his people. No bait and switch.

So take your accused fiction and get the facts right.

ROFLOL, scripture says men received the gospel with joy, but no one would receive Calvinism's version if presented accurately rather than in code.

I provided evidence for my observations, quoting John Piper, what evidence have you supplied? Nothing, zip, nada.

Consider this, if I had presented the John Piper quote without attribution, as if it reflected my view, each and every Calvinist would have said I was wrong, spiritually dead men cannot seek God and on and on. Bait and switch.

When I presented the "do your best" and if God credits your faith, flawed as it may be, He will save you, a Calvinist said I got it wrong. Calvinism speaks with forked tongue.

 

[Van]

Christ died for all men, Jew or Gentile, thus He died for His people. Whoever God gives to Him becomes a member of His people, Jew or Gentile, a part of "all Israel." Limited Atonement is a complete work of fiction.

 

[Bluefalcon]

First and foremost, I do not have a negative view on books. Quite the contrary. My home and workshop are actually filled to overflowing with books. Our bedroom is a library with barely enough room to get to the bed. In one corner there is a stack of books that reaches the ceiling because I don't have room for another bookcase. Most of those books have been read, at least once, and many have been read multiple times. To make it quite clear, I've been collecting books, on subjects of interest for more than 50 years. When interests in certain subjects has waned, I've given the applicable books away. Over the years, probably have given away as many as I still have stuffed everywhere.

It is because of my lifelong interest in books, that I give you the advise that I do regarding them. I've done exactly what you are doing now. Much to my regret in some cases. There comes a time to stop reading MORE books and go to work. Outside there is a shop full of woodworking machinery along with I don't know how many books on that subject. With every machine out there, there comes a time to put down the books and flip the switch on the piece of equipement. To actually make some sawdust instead of just reading more and about making sawdust. There comes a time, when electing to read more books is counterproductive. Instead of making sawdust, reading more books was just an excuse not to roll up my sleeves and do the work the machine was designed to help accomplish. I don't need to read book after book on routers, while the router, itself is idle and collecting dust.

Nor do I need to read another book on removing rust using electrolysis. The system is setup. The system works. When I'm sitting and ah read'n NOTHING is being accomplished. I'm putting more interest in what others say about rust removal than actually putting in the effort to restore those cruddy skillets to a useful life.

I see that in myself, when it happens. I see that in you, according to your posts, as well. It is something that neither of us should be proud of saying and doing.

What is stopping you from going to a park, a street corner, or wherever you preach far more frequently than just once a month? If you have the passion, that you claim, nothing should be stopping you. If God has called you to this mission, you don't need anything except Him. You don't need endorsement from your church. You don't need opinions from countless authors. You don't need to spend hours, hours and more hours reading about doing what He has called you to do. You, hopefully, have already read His Instruction book. You, hopefully, already are seeking His guidance through the Holy Spirit.

I'm just a "retired" layman, yet, yesterday I spent approximately 6 hours away from home, in His service. Shortly, will begin repeating the same again today. Plus this evening will be attending a special service at another church in my community. Every Wednesday is a full day with morning Bible study, work on plumbing in the Fellowship Hall (this week), followed in the evening with choir practice and another Bible study.

I'm not trying to pat myself on the back with these words. Instead trying to show you that there comes a point in time when reading anything other than God's word is far secondary to doing the work He has called us to do. My calling is different from yours, but the same principle applies. This morning I can choose to read one of those books, previously mentioned, or actually go out and do the work that needs to be done, in His name.

It's your choice. Use the time God has made available to you to read the Bible, plus those 10 more books you mentioned. Or use the time those 10 books will take, to find an open air spot and actually do what He has called you to do.

Bluntly, worship those books or worship and honor Him via actually doing what He's called you to do.

Brother, I'm trying desperately to get you to avoid the mistakes that I've made. It doesn't matter what opinion John Piper or anyone else expresses. What matters is whether this day you can help bring another lost soul to Christ. It's for sure that isn't likely to happen, if you're sitting in a chair reading a book.

In closing, I have deep regrets, now, over the time, that I lost when I could have been in His service, instead of having my nose in a book. :tear: Just don't want another brother to shed tears later in life for what might have been.

Edit: Just re-read your post. I don't know where you got the idea that I'm opposed to your calling. Far from it. How many more times do I have to say, pick up your tools and do the work that God has called you to do? IMO, that sure isn't opposition, no matter how you chose to phrase it.

Wow, what a post! I respect your opinion.

 

[Van]

Calvinism relies upon misrepresenting scripture, using unsound hermeneutics, and slicing and dicing it to alter and even reverse its meaning.

Case in point, John Piper's presentation of Romans 14:23. Here is how he presented it:

Romans 14:23 says, "Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." This is a radical indictment of all natural "virtue" that does not flow from a heart humbly relying on God's grace."

But here is the actual verse, unedited: "But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin." So the actual idea is if you are not sure God allows you to eat food that might lead to a brother stumbling, then to eat it is sin because you do not have faith it is in God's will. Thus the verse does not even address faith in Christ. John Piper lifts a partial quote, and then says it says what it does not say. Not a well to drink from.

 

[Rippon]

If you go to a Reformed Church and pick up a salvation track, it will pretty much present the Arminian view of the gospel.

You don't get out much;do you? And when you do get some air it is certain you do not frequent the track rack of Reformed Churches. You have a lot of temerity to state things so absolutely with absolutely no truth behind your charges. Name some Reformed churches you have visited. Just one even,if you are feeling caught in a trap by my question.

 

[evangelist6589]

First and foremost, I do not have a negative view on books. Quite the contrary. My home and workshop are actually filled to overflowing with books. Our bedroom is a library with barely enough room to get to the bed. In one corner there is a stack of books that reaches the ceiling because I don't have room for another bookcase. Most of those books have been read, at least once, and many have been read multiple times. To make it quite clear, I've been collecting books, on subjects of interest for more than 50 years. When interests in certain subjects has waned, I've given the applicable books away. Over the years, probably have given away as many as I still have stuffed everywhere.

You have got to be kidding me. If this is true why are you so negative when it comes to books? Or have I misread you?

It is because of my lifelong interest in books, that I give you the advise that I do regarding them. I've done exactly what you are doing now. Much to my regret in some cases. There comes a time to stop reading MORE books and go to work. Outside there is a shop full of woodworking machinery along with I don't know how many books on that subject. With every machine out there, there comes a time to put down the books and flip the switch on the piece of equipement. To actually make some sawdust instead of just reading more and about making sawdust. There comes a time, when electing to read more books is counterproductive. Instead of making sawdust, reading more books was just an excuse not to roll up my sleeves and do the work the machine was designed to help accomplish. I don't need to read book after book on routers, while the router, itself is idle and collecting dust

.

Hmm.... You make a good point. I agree with you. However I am already going to work, for if I was not I would not be street preaching.

Nor do I need to read another book on removing rust using electrolysis. The system is setup. The system works. When I'm sitting and ah read'n NOTHING is being accomplished. I'm putting more interest in what others say about rust removal than actually putting in the effort to restore those cruddy skillets to a useful life.

No question about it

I see that in myself, when it happens. I see that in you, according to your posts, as well. It is something that neither of us should be proud of saying and doing.

Hmm...

What is stopping you from going to a park, a street corner, or wherever you preach far more frequently than just once a month? If you have the passion, that you claim, nothing should be stopping you. If God has called you to this mission, you don't need anything except Him. You don't need endorsement from your church. You don't need opinions from countless authors. You don't need to spend hours, hours and more hours reading about doing what He has called you to do. You, hopefully, have already read His Instruction book. You, hopefully, already are seeking His guidance through the Holy Spirit.

I enjoyed the days living in SC living 5 mins from DT Greenville and going twice a week. I very much miss those days. The only thing that changed my frequency there was when I got a new job that worked nights and most saturdays. Then it was rough getting out. That is why as I job hunt I am looking for a 1st shift job which God will find me. I live some 30-40 mins from DT Denver so it is farther away.

I'm just a "retired" layman, yet, yesterday I spent approximately 6 hours away from home, in His service. Shortly, will begin repeating the same again today. Plus this evening will be attending a special service at another church in my community. Every Wednesday is a full day with morning Bible study, work on plumbing in the Fellowship Hall (this week), followed in the evening with choir practice and another Bible study.

Explain... You do street evangelism? 6 hours? Impressive. I have allot of tracts but not sure if 6 hours would be enough.

I'm not trying to pat myself on the back with these words. Instead trying to show you that there comes a point in time when reading anything other than God's word is far secondary to doing the work He has called us to do. My calling is different from yours, but the same principle applies. This morning I can choose to read one of those books, previously mentioned, or actually go out and do the work that needs to be done, in His name.

Amen. I am looking for a job at this time, but this weekend we plan to hit the streets. Ideally I want to do this twice a month.

It's your choice. Use the time God has made available to you to read the Bible, plus those 10 more books you mentioned. Or use the time those 10 books will take, to find an open air spot and actually do what He has called you to do.

Not all books are about evangelism but all are about the Bible, Theology, christian living, and some history, politics, and comparative religion.

Bluntly, worship those books or worship and honor Him via actually doing what He's called you to do.

How can I engage Muslims or the New Spirituality if I do not read books to learn about them?

Brother, I'm trying desperately to get you to avoid the mistakes that I've made. It doesn't matter what opinion John Piper or anyone else expresses. What matters is whether this day you can help bring another lost soul to Christ. It's for sure that isn't likely to happen, if you're sitting in a chair reading a book.

Are you preaching an Arminian form of evangelism to me? Its not me but God whom brings the converts.

In closing, I have deep regrets, now, over the time, that I lost when I could have been in His service, instead of having my nose in a book. :tear: Just don't want another brother to shed tears later in life for what might have been.

Edit: Just re-read your post. I don't know where you got the idea that I'm opposed to your calling. Far from it. How many more times do I have to say, pick up your tools and do the work that God has called you to do? IMO, that sure isn't opposition, no matter how you chose to phrase it.

[/QUOTE]

 

[evangelist6589]

Not at all, which makes Van's posts even more unhelpful for this thread. Definitely read them. I just remembered that I changed my siggie to a quote from God is the Gospel. Really good!

Good. If he did I would not read it.

 

[evangelist6589]

And we all know that the Lord cannot minister through those that do not go to Seminary, lol.

As I said in the last post, there are some books I would recommend to others, however, what I would warn against is replacing the word of God with books about the word of God. Given the fact that most of us can be highly impressionable and that usually when one exposes themselves to the reasoning of men they can begin to sympathize with them, it is best to be very careful about what it is we read.

As far as authority goes, I am okay with that, and will submit myself first to God and then those that I believe He has placed in a position of authority in the Body, beginning first with my own Pastors and from there it is up to me, based upon careful examination of what others teach and preach, to decide. When it comes to extrabiblical literature I prefer first to hear these men preach before committing myself to reading their material, as their hearts seem more readily apparent in this. Kind of like texting today: a person can be anyone they want to be, but meet that person in real life and perhaps you may have a different person.

But the bottom line is the doctrinal position of those that write these books. Those that are young in faith (and I think we can all relate to this) have a great need of being discipled properly, and just as we might watch carefully over a small baby crawling on the floor, who will pick up just about anything and put it in their mouth, even so what we as Christians "ingest" is important.

We should begin with the word and measure other books by the word, rather than the other way around.

So I will ask again: have you read "The Gospel According to Jesus" by John MacArthur?

God bless.

All books need to be tested with the Bible yes. No I have not read that one but it is in my stack of books to read. Is it good? Better than God is the Gospel? Which one should I hit first?

 

[evangelist6589]

You don't get out much;do you? And when you do get some air it is certain you do not frequent the track rack of Reformed Churches. You have a lot of temerity to state things so absolutely with absolutely no truth behind your charges. Name some Reformed churches you have visited. Just one even,if you are feeling caught in a trap by my question.

I agree with you. Clearly Van has not visited a Reformed Church. My parents RSB Church has lots of tracts and lots from John Piper. They also have tracts from Living Waters, and even Arminian evangelism ministries such as fellowship tract league.

 

[Oldtimer]

You have got to be kidding me. If this is true why are you so negative when it comes to books? Or have I misread you?
.

(A) I don't "kid" or lie, as you've implied, when I'm talking about anything relating to our Creator and Saviour.

(B) Books are like food. Good, healthy, food nourishes and strengthens our bodies to help us do what God has called us to do. Books, the Bible first and foremost, nourishes our minds and our souls. Secular books can teach craftsman's skills when a master craftsman is not available to give hands-on instruction, in the art of staining wood, for example. Since, the Master Craftsman, lives within us, we don't NEED any book, except HIS for guidance to do His will.

Books are like food. What does the Bible say about gluttony? What does the Bible say about moderation? Are we supposed to sit at the table and keep on eating everything from the menu that appeals to us? Amazon has a vast menu of dishes to choose from to grace the table before us. Their menu never ends, unless we push our chairs away from the table.

Whether books offering human opinions of God or meat and taters, at some point, we have to leave the table. If we don't and our gluttony grows, either one can be a negative in our lives. We are consuming the fruit of others, instead of producing fruit ourselves.

Hmm.... You make a good point. I agree with you. However I am already going to work, for if I was not I would not be street preaching.

Your key words that tell, oh so much about you........ "already going to work".

"Going to work" vs "already working". How many times do I hear the phrase "going to" in the world around me? I'm "going to" start a diet tomorrow, while reaching for another serving of meat and taters. I'm "going to" mow the grass tomorrow, while sitting on a couch watching TV. I'm "going to" start coming to church on Sunday. I'm "going to" start reading my Bible.

Far too often, those "I'm going to" turn into vague empty promises. Diet, grass mowing, church attendance, Bible reading, etc. are postponed to yet another tomorrow. Excuses abound.

No question about it

If there's no question about it, why did you say what you said in your reply? Implication is that you agree with the premise. Yet, the rest of your post implies the opposite. Brother -- think about it.

Hmm...

Interesting reply, especially in view of what those three letters say and don't say.

I enjoyed the days living in SC living 5 mins from DT Greenville and going twice a week. I very much miss those days. The only thing that changed my frequency there was when I got a new job that worked nights and most saturdays. Then it was rough getting out. That is why as I job hunt I am looking for a 1st shift job which God will find me. I live some 30-40 mins from DT Denver so it is farther away.

(A) Did God call you to leave SC?
(B) Working nights and Saturday's gave you the opportunity to open air preach during the day, during weekdays.
(C) God never promised that our lot in life, that our calling would be easy.
(D) Do you ever pray for God to put you where you can best do His will, regardless of the shift schedule? There are lost to be reached 24 hours a day. God wants willing workers, who put personal preferences aside, in order to do His will.
(E) What does the distance to Denver have to do with anything? I live an hour, each way, from the closest big city. Are there no small communities between you and Denver? Are there no opportunities, whatsoever, in your immediate vicinity to take the Good News of our Saviour?

Look for the "excuses" in your life. I have to do that very thing, everyday. It is far too easy to let satan's long list of excuses take priority. I know. I'm guilty, too. :tear:

Explain... You do street evangelism? 6 hours? Impressive. I have allot of tracts but not sure if 6 hours would be enough.

You didn't read my post(s). :flower:
God hasn't called me to be a preacher. There are many ways to serve our Lord without having a "preacher" designation. Sometimes, it's picking up a mop to clean the floor in the Fellowship Hall. Sometimes, it's replacing a rotten bathroom floor in the home of a disabled person. Sometimes it's taking a person to his/her doctor's appointments. Sometimes it's making CD copies of sermons to be mailed to shut-ins living in nursing homes. Sometimes it's helping a neighbor, who's behind in his own work, because he has been helping someone else. Sometimes, it's simply extending a hand and an offer of help, regardless of the how, to someone truly in need.

Serving our Lord isn't just about preaching and handing out tracts. Serving the Lord isn't just about reading more books. Yes, God calls some to preach. Yes, handing out tracts can be worthwhile. (qualifier here) IMO, God gives most multiple gifts. Not always the same ones to each person. However, I believe that God expects us to use all of our gifts, everyday. Every time, the opportunity arises to use one or more of them.

In terms of serving our Lord, the most important thing that I might do this day, is to loan my truck to someone who needs to take trash to a landfill. If that arises, there's a choice to be made. Either find an "excuse" for not doing so, or hand him the keys. (The equivalent of that happened twice last week. Loaned my truck to someone in need.) ie practicing, as best I can, what I preach.

Amen. I am looking for a job at this time, but this weekend we plan to hit the streets. Ideally I want to do this twice a month.

Again, please go back and read what I wrote, Brother. Since you gave those words an "Amen", apply them. What are you doing in the hours that you are not looking for a job? Since I've also done job hunting, have a decent idea of how much time it actually takes in an average day/week. What are you doing during the rest of your waking hours? This, in part, gets back to books, which is the topic of this thread. Are you sitting at the table consuming more books, when you have the opportunity to do so much more in the name of our Lord. Opportunity that will not exist once a new found job takes 40 hours a week from the time available to serve Him, in His calling.

You've included a "we" in your plan. Why do you need a "we" to "hit the streets"? Are you married, yet? Are you still "dating"? Think about it, Brother. If, God has called you to "open air preach" His word, are you scheduling your time based on her schedule or His?

What is God's ideal schedule for you to preach the Gospel of our Saviour? IMO, as a layman, reading your words, shouldn't you be saying, that you'll be doing this at every opportunity that God provides, each and every day of the month? Are you working on your timetable or His?

Not all books are about evangelism but all are about the Bible, Theology, christian living, and some history, politics, and comparative religion.

You either missed or ignored the point being made. I doesn't matter what content is in those 10 books. Is it time to leave the table and use what you've already learned? How many hours will it take to consume those 10 books? Hours that can be used to serve our Lord in other ways?

How can I engage Muslims or the New Spirituality if I do not read books to learn about them?

The same way that you would engage any other lost person. God, Himself, equips all He calls to preach, with all they need to take His message to the lost. As mentioned before, an "uneducated" pastor that I know, has never read all those books you mention, yet he is doing his part to help bring the lost to Christ. The evidence is in the fruit he bears. If you were to mention "New Spirituality" to him, I doubt that he'd have a clue as to what you're talking about. HE DOESN'T NEED TO HAVE THAT HEAD KNOWLEDGE. He has what God gave him, when God called him to preach.

Are you preaching an Arminian form of evangelism to me? Its not me but God whom brings the converts.

I'm not "preaching" anything from the standpoint that you just mentioned. It doesn't matter what kind of label that you try to stick on me to try to justify yourself. To find excuses. Brother, you've just crossed a line that you shouldn't have crossed with another brother in Christ.

Perhaps it's time that I do what the scriptures, tell us to do with dust and sandals. For me to ask a question. raying: Lord, is there anything else that I can do or say before moving on and leaving this brother to his own destiny of regret for what might have been? :tear:

 

[Darrell C]

All books need to be tested with the Bible yes. No I have not read that one but it is in my stack of books to read. Is it good? Better than God is the Gospel? Which one should I hit first?

This is one of the books I readily recommend (The Gospel According to Jesus), so I would say this one. One of the things about it is it is almost more like commentary on scripture, so that while you read it you are still reading scripture.

It may be I am a little biased, as I believe MacArthur to be one of the best teachers out there (though we disagree on a few things, lol), and I am not familiar with Piper.

Give it a go, E, I would bet if you get through the first couple chapters it will be difficult to put down. And it is a very easy book to read, and doesn't take long to read it.

God bless.

 

[evangelist6589]

(A) I don't "kid" or lie, as you've implied, when I'm talking about anything relating to our Creator and Saviour.

(B) Books are like food. Good, healthy, food nourishes and strengthens our bodies to help us do what God has called us to do. Books, the Bible first and foremost, nourishes our minds and our souls. Secular books can teach craftsman's skills when a master craftsman is not available to give hands-on instruction, in the art of staining wood, for example. Since, the Master Craftsman, lives within us, we don't NEED any book, except HIS for guidance to do His will.

Books are like food. What does the Bible say about gluttony? What does the Bible say about moderation? Are we supposed to sit at the table and keep on eating everything from the menu that appeals to us? Amazon has a vast menu of dishes to choose from to grace the table before us. Their menu never ends, unless we push our chairs away from the table.

Whether books offering human opinions of God or meat and taters, at some point, we have to leave the table. If we don't and our gluttony grows, either one can be a negative in our lives. We are consuming the fruit of others, instead of producing fruit ourselves.



Your key words that tell, oh so much about you........ "already going to work".

"Going to work" vs "already working". How many times do I hear the phrase "going to" in the world around me? I'm "going to" start a diet tomorrow, while reaching for another serving of meat and taters. I'm "going to" mow the grass tomorrow, while sitting on a couch watching TV. I'm "going to" start coming to church on Sunday. I'm "going to" start reading my Bible.

Far too often, those "I'm going to" turn into vague empty promises. Diet, grass mowing, church attendance, Bible reading, etc. are postponed to yet another tomorrow. Excuses abound.


If there's no question about it, why did you say what you said in your reply? Implication is that you agree with the premise. Yet, the rest of your post implies the opposite. Brother -- think about it.

Interesting reply, especially in view of what those three letters say and don't say.



(A) Did God call you to leave SC?
(B) Working nights and Saturday's gave you the opportunity to open air preach during the day, during weekdays.
(C) God never promised that our lot in life, that our calling would be easy.
(D) Do you ever pray for God to put you where you can best do His will, regardless of the shift schedule? There are lost to be reached 24 hours a day. God wants willing workers, who put personal preferences aside, in order to do His will.
(E) What does the distance to Denver have to do with anything? I live an hour, each way, from the closest big city. Are there no small communities between you and Denver? Are there no opportunities, whatsoever, in your immediate vicinity to take the Good News of our Saviour?

Look for the "excuses" in your life. I have to do that very thing, everyday. It is far too easy to let satan's long list of excuses take priority. I know. I'm guilty, too. :tear:




You didn't read my post(s). :flower:
God hasn't called me to be a preacher. There are many ways to serve our Lord without having a "preacher" designation. Sometimes, it's picking up a mop to clean the floor in the Fellowship Hall. Sometimes, it's replacing a rotten bathroom floor in the home of a disabled person. Sometimes it's taking a person to his/her doctor's appointments. Sometimes it's making CD copies of sermons to be mailed to shut-ins living in nursing homes. Sometimes it's helping a neighbor, who's behind in his own work, because he has been helping someone else. Sometimes, it's simply extending a hand and an offer of help, regardless of the how, to someone truly in need.

Serving our Lord isn't just about preaching and handing out tracts. Serving the Lord isn't just about reading more books. Yes, God calls some to preach. Yes, handing out tracts can be worthwhile. (qualifier here) IMO, God gives most multiple gifts. Not always the same ones to each person. However, I believe that God expects us to use all of our gifts, everyday. Every time, the opportunity arises to use one or more of them.

In terms of serving our Lord, the most important thing that I might do this day, is to loan my truck to someone who needs to take trash to a landfill. If that arises, there's a choice to be made. Either find an "excuse" for not doing so, or hand him the keys. (The equivalent of that happened twice last week. Loaned my truck to someone in need.) ie practicing, as best I can, what I preach.



Again, please go back and read what I wrote, Brother. Since you gave those words an "Amen", apply them. What are you doing in the hours that you are not looking for a job? Since I've also done job hunting, have a decent idea of how much time it actually takes in an average day/week. What are you doing during the rest of your waking hours? This, in part, gets back to books, which is the topic of this thread. Are you sitting at the table consuming more books, when you have the opportunity to do so much more in the name of our Lord. Opportunity that will not exist once a new found job takes 40 hours a week from the time available to serve Him, in His calling.

You've included a "we" in your plan. Why do you need a "we" to "hit the streets"? Are you married, yet? Are you still "dating"? Think about it, Brother. If, God has called you to "open air preach" His word, are you scheduling your time based on her schedule or His?

What is God's ideal schedule for you to preach the Gospel of our Saviour? IMO, as a layman, reading your words, shouldn't you be saying, that you'll be doing this at every opportunity that God provides, each and every day of the month? Are you working on your timetable or His?

You either missed or ignored the point being made. I doesn't matter what content is in those 10 books. Is it time to leave the table and use what you've already learned? How many hours will it take to consume those 10 books? Hours that can be used to serve our Lord in other ways?

The same way that you would engage any other lost person. God, Himself, equips all He calls to preach, with all they need to take His message to the lost. As mentioned before, an "uneducated" pastor that I know, has never read all those books you mention, yet he is doing his part to help bring the lost to Christ. The evidence is in the fruit he bears. If you were to mention "New Spirituality" to him, I doubt that he'd have a clue as to what you're talking about. HE DOESN'T NEED TO HAVE THAT HEAD KNOWLEDGE. He has what God gave him, when God called him to preach.



I'm not "preaching" anything from the standpoint that you just mentioned. It doesn't matter what kind of label that you try to stick on me to try to justify yourself. To find excuses. Brother, you've just crossed a line that you shouldn't have crossed with another brother in Christ.

Perhaps it's time that I do what the scriptures, tell us to do with dust and sandals. For me to ask a question. raying: Lord, is there anything else that I can do or say before moving on and leaving this brother to his own destiny of regret for what might have been? :tear:

Thanks for your advice.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I've listened to both, and while I respect them as preachers, there are more times when I see almost no distinction between them and most Arminian/semi-Pelagian preachers out there.

 

[evangelist6589]

This is one of the books I readily recommend (The Gospel According to Jesus), so I would say this one. One of the things about it is it is almost more like commentary on scripture, so that while you read it you are still reading scripture.

It may be I am a little biased, as I believe MacArthur to be one of the best teachers out there (though we disagree on a few things, lol), and I am not familiar with Piper.

Give it a go, E, I would bet if you get through the first couple chapters it will be difficult to put down. And it is a very easy book to read, and doesn't take long to read it.

God bless.

I love MacArthur although the 2nd edition no doubt is more academic than many of his other books that I own. It definitely appears to be a seminary read and it is. Many of his later books are not. But good I like the meat of his deeper works.

 

[webdog]

I was referring mostly to your unhelpfulness in regards to the OP. This is not a discussion about Calvinism, no matter how much you want it to be.

Considering the author being asked about us a Calvinist, you couldn't be more wrong.

 

[Van]

I see two people who asserted I had not been to any reformed churches without a shred of evidence. This was a feeble effort to undercut the fact that Reformed Church Salvation tracks soft pedal Calvinism and present pretty much the Arminian gospel.

Here is one such tract:

Welcome to the Reformed Gospel Tracts website

Our purpose is to provide quality gospel tracts that present the biblical gospel in a clear and concise format, with a creative and contemporary layout.

The purpose of this website is twofold. Firstly, it is to provide information on the tracts we produce and how to order them. Secondly, we also wish to provide a place to learn more about the gospel, and the Bible in general — this is mainly done by providing links to recommended resources such as books, websites and online videos.

God the Righteous Creator

Read it in the Bible: Genesis 1-2, Psalm 89, Revelation 4

“In the beginning, God created…”
Genesis 1:1

This is where it all begins. The Bible tells us that God has created you and me, the universe, and everything else. Because God is our Creator, he has the right to tell us how to live. He created us to love, serve, and enjoy being with him forever. God is perfectly holy and righteous, which means he is completely pure and hates all evil.


Man the Sinner

Read it in the Bible: Romans 5, 2 Thessalonians 1, 1 John 1

“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves”
1 John 1:8

Instead of seeking God and loving him, we have all rebelled against him and done wrong. This places us in danger of eternal punishment, which we rightly deserve because of our sin against our Creator. One
day we will all die and be held accountable for our every evil thought, word and deed.

Christ the Saviour

Read it in the Bible: John 10, Matthew 28, Acts 4

“There is salvation in no one else”
Acts 4:12

Here comes the good news — the gospel — that even though we are sinners who deserve hell, God in his great love and mercy has provided a Saviour so that we can be forgiven. God sent his Son the Lord Jesus Christ, who lived a perfect life, and died on the cross taking on himself the punishment for the sin of all those who will turn and trust in him. Three days later he rose from the grave, conquering death itself.

Repentance & Faith

Read it in the Bible: John 3, Acts 17, Ephesians 2

“Repent and believe in the gospel”
Mark 1:15

How does this apply to us? God commands us to turn away from our sin and to trust in Christ alone for our forgiveness and salvation. If we turn toward God and have faith in the Lord Jesus and what he has done, we will be saved and born again into a new and eternal life with God our Creator. Now that’s good news indeed!

Notice this could be presenting the Arminian gospel because it leaves out the if God chose you before creation and enables you to turn to God, then you will be compelled to turn toward God. Calvinism speaks with forked tongue.

No amount of attacks on my character will alter the obvious truth.

BTW, the church where I looked over the tract rack is " Emmanuel Reformed Church."

 

[Greektim]

Considering the author being asked about us a Calvinist, you couldn't be more wrong.

Actually... having read both books that the OP was actually about, I couldn't be more right. Just b/c Piper is a Calvie doesn't mean he harps on it in every book he writes. You guys are raising moot points. His views on LA have nothing to do w/ his outstanding books mentioned in the OP.

Thanks again for adding to the unhelpfulness just b/c you have an axe to grind against reformed theology.

 

[Van]

Actually... having read both books that the OP was actually about, I couldn't be more right. Just b/c Piper is a Calvie doesn't mean he harps on it in every book he writes. You guys are raising moot points. His views on LA have nothing to do w/ his outstanding books mentioned in the OP.

Thanks again for adding to the unhelpfulness just b/c you have an axe to grind against reformed theology.

Greektim has no clue, the issue is not that he harps on the 5 points, that is the opposite of what I claimed, he runs from and presents a deceptive gospel that reads like the Arminian gospel unless you recognize the code. Your post pointing to the Calvinist fictions of Irresistible Grace and Total Spiritual Inability was helpful, but your slanderous person attacks are devoid of truth.

 

[webdog]

Actually... having read both books that the OP was actually about, I couldn't be more right. Just b/c Piper is a Calvie doesn't mean he harps on it in every book he writes. You guys are raising moot points. His views on LA have nothing to do w/ his outstanding books mentioned in the OP.

Thanks again for adding to the unhelpfulness just b/c you have an axe to grind against reformed theology.

Considering his books are written through the lens of Calvinism, I couldn't be more right. His entire theology is based on the premesis Calvinism is true. I don't care one way or the other, just pointing out you are wrong. No axe to grind. My axe is against pride.