Featured John Piper

Hi Van,

this isnt really OT, but it might proove interresting nevertheless.

i wasnt talking about some sort of "spiritual time" or anything like it, its more like an abscence of what we call time really.
God does not originate from inside the Universe, therefore he cannot be subject to the physical limits of it.
Whatever timeframe God exists in, if there even is such a thing, its not in any percievable way tied to what we expirience as linear time.
Imagine a fish yar, if you stir up the water in it, that rotational momentum doesent affect the guy outside of it, or his living room, at all...
Plus i dont make any assumtions on how time in the realm of God might or might not work, since it deals with stuff outside of our Universe, which by definition is not part of any scientific research at all,
due to the inability to proove or disproove any theories revolving around events that arent inherent part of the Universe.
Mathematics(and Math is definetly a game God came up with) dealing with multidimensional Objects certainly verifies, that an outside observer would be able to see the entirety of time(wich is just an
additional "axis" to the 3 defining space, hence the term spacetime. A concept backed by Ephesians 3:18).
I might add that Scripture does indeed talk about the multidimensionality of our physical world, and that, based on the 10 "there be's" in the Genesis account, a 10 dimensional framework was propsed in the
14th century allready, confirming modern day scientific discoveries from String Theory research.
In fact, science allways only catches up to what the Bible claimed all along...
Check out Chuck Misslers beyond series for more info on that topic and other things.
Scripture and (honest)science being incompatible is but a missconception.

regards

 

Yes, I understand physical time is part of creation. But the assertion of the absence of sequence in God's eternal realm has no basis in scripture. Note that souls in heaven ask how long, indicating some sort of interval awareness.

 

I agree, note hoewever how i dont bother to make assumptions of how a time-equivalent might or might not work in heaven.
By "abscence of time" i meant hes not subject to what we percieve as time, we ofc have no clue about heavens physical laws.
Its beyond the point of where we have any valid information to base assumptions on, since heaven is a place outside the Universe(note how honest science shouldnt bother with any multiverse theories, for this very reason).
All i say is that God, to the best of our current knowledge level, can observe his creation as a whole, since it appears to be a closed system(matter or energy can neither be created nor destroyed, on the 7th day creation was "finished").
I say that to emphasise that God doesent require any "crystal ball", as youve put it, to foresee future events.
As an outside observer he can just look at it and see how it actually turns out, meaning he doesent need to make any assumptions, he can observe the outcome with 100% certainty, since time is allso part of that 4 dimensional construct,
in the same way the 3 spacial dimensions are.
It might be hard to comprehend, but the coming events, which appear to be in motion from our inside perspective, are allready determinated, since that 4th dimension, which we expirience as time, is allso part of this "finished" creation.
That ofc doesent exclude the possibility of God making tweaks to it, and adjusting the timeline to his desire, but that again is something we dont have any usable data on, other than God can do to his creation whatever he wants.
The Bible says "wisdom is the principal thing", which is a broad term not soledomly restricted to scriptural knowledge only.
God tells us that he'll reveal himself through the hidden qualities of creation, which requires one to have a certain understanding of it.

/edit: if you want to thoroughly discuss this topic, i suggest we open an appropriate thread for it, before we "highjack" this one.
id gladly share any piece of knowledge ive learned so far...

 

You then deny the clear teachings of the Bible that God can and does harden and soften hearts of people, as per His divine plans and purposes?

And pharoah had already decided in his own heart to go against God and his people, so God just hastened that process!

Same way with Judas and jesus...

 

He certainly can do it, which doesent adress the question of any circumstances that might be required for him to do so at all...
Pharao being an excellent example for that btw.
Hes been offered the opportunity to comply twice before God sealed the deal.
Something that is, on purpose imo, beeing overlooked when this example is cited, in the above context.
Mind that you shouldnt just not add, but allso not take away from the word.
God will allso hold you accountable for what you purposefully left out.

The question boils down to either God being just/fair, and holding true to those claims, or being haphazardy and selective, and punishing you for things you havent been offered any choice on.
While i find numerous examples(and the often cited Pharao definetly being one of them) on the first one, i dont see any scriptual examples of God acting in the latter way.

The sense of moral that is inherit in every human being, is an often brought up example of how we are created in the image of God, and share that same sense of moral and righteousness.
Yet i havent met a single person, that isnt arguing with his education, instead of this feeling of right and wrong, when it comes to defending those particular claims.

My heart DOES tell me God isnt cruel and unjust, which by any definition would be the case, if he were selective in his grace, instead of holding true to "not willing that any should perish",
and offering salvation to any one of us, who freely chooses to accept his pardon.

Revelations 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
It doesent say "any elect", it says "any man". Emphasis on ANY.

 

Exactly. And the funny thing on top of that is Van claims that he wants to debate scripture but when you give him scripture he evades it...quite delusional. He's right he's not Calvinist or Arminian...he's confused.

 

And how is it that you totally exclude the above mentioned two chances to repent, before the Lord hardened his neck?
Your being selective in what part of scripture is to be recognised and what can be ignored.
Thats not what id call unbiased, and raises the question on how much you delude yourself.
You cant only tell half the story and then draw conclusions based on incomplete quotations.
Thats massively dishonest. :thumbsdown:

 

???? You should probably use the quote feature so we know who you're referring to.

 

Folks, Yeshua1 loves to make assertions devoid of any support. Do I deny the clear teachings of scripture? Nope, but Yeshua1 does. Did I deny God hardens hearts? Nope, but Calvinism cannot explain why God would harden hearts if Total Spiritual Inability were true, as the heart would already be hardened. Did I deny God softens hearts? I did not address that topic. But no verse will be supplied which states God softens hearts. Yes God open's hearts to the truth with His revelation, but to claim that is an example of irresistible grace assumes facts not in evidence.

The issue is not that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, He did. Why keep making that point. Evasion and obfuscation. The issue is do God compel Pharaoh to sin then punish him for that sin. And he did not as shown by scripture.

 

RBT has become a broken record, posting the same insult, demonstrating a lack of argument. Go figure.

 

Hi Dolour, I made reference to scripture which teaches that souls in heaven have an awareness of the passage of "time." Thus we have a clue that some sort of "spiritual time" exists. This precludes an argument for the absence of an awareness of the passage of time.

Finally, you posit an existent future that God can know from outside time. This too is not supported from scripture, and thus is science-fiction.

 

It is here that Van's evasion starts. What point is there to make this statement other than to take away from any argument (if you had one).

 

Brother Dolour,

Hi. I believe the question it boils down to is mankind before they are born again totally depraved in the flesh and thus unable to have faith in Christ or come to repentance. If the answer is yes, then one must embrace the doctrine of predestination, that God sovereignly quickens a dead sinner by imparting the Holy Spirit to the individual, then they repent and believe the gospel. If the answer is no, then man on their own can come to repentance and faith, thus the Holy Spirit isn't even necessary. For me the physical realm comes into play. How one becomes "saved" in scripture is compared to a new birth, a resurrection from the dead, and a creation. Just as one has no role into being born into this world man does not play a role in their second birth. Likewise Lazarus being raised from the dead by Christ played no role in this-Christ did it on his own sovereignly by telling him to come forth. Finally, Adam and Eve played no role in their being created, likewise when one becomes a "new creature" it is all God's doing. If man is truly "dead in sins" prior to the new birth as scripture tells us then on his own he cannot repent and believe the gospel. A dead man cannot do anything. You must first be made alive (spiritually that is) before you can have faith.

 

@rbt: I was refering to Pharao, who was brought up numerous times in this threat as an example, and the issue of him refusing compliance twice according to the text, before god hardened his heart.
So, Pharao quite took some actions of being disobidient, prior to this hardening.
Thus God didnt initially cause him to do the wrong thing, he was left the choice, and only afterwards the Lord took away his ability to freely choose, and used the guy, who screwed up personally, to fulfill his means.
That was, in those numerous cases of him being used as an example, not taken into account, even tho its quite vital to the question of God causing ppl to do the wrong thing to begin with, or just uses sinners who willingly passed on their fair chance.
This habit of cherrypicking only those parts of scripture that support ones own view, is imo very dishonest.
Hope that makes it a little more clear, englishs obviously not my native language, so be clement with me and my limited ability to properly express my thoughts.

@Van: Ephisians 3:18 does imo support this, for it confirms the 4d universe we live in, while genesis confirms the 10d framework that contruct is embedded in.
Alot of believing scientists share this view, based on what theyve read in the Bible.
Simillary to us not being capable of percieving a tasseracts 4th dimension, we pretty much only see an ordinary cube due to our restrictions to 3 spacial dimensions, we allso have a limited view on that 4th dimension we expirience as time.
That doesent mean its not there in its entirety, were just denied the capability to observe more than a part of it.
Any one entity of a higher dimensionality, and there is good, scriptural reason to assume the heavenly realm consists of sayd 10 dimensions, would not be subjects to those limitations.
Imagine a 3-dimensional sphere traversing a sheet of 2d paper.
Anyone dwelling on this piece of paper would percieve a dot showing up, that becomes a circle that grows larger and larger, then after passing the equator smaller and smaller again, and finally collapse back to a dot that then dissapear.
Even tho the 2d dweller didnt see any sphere, but only a growing and shrinking circle, doesent mean the sphere wasnt there the whole time.
Simmilary we only see a tiny fraction of "time", which doesent apply to those that dwell in the higher dimensional framework our universe is embedded in.
The Bible allso talks about how we will be enabled to see Jesus how he really is, imo due to us being extended beyong 3(or 4) dimensions.
Its written that well dwell with God, which wouldnt technically be possible with fewer dimensions.

@B.Joseph: Think of the implications resulting from that thought tho:
Is that working of the Spirit restricted to just some elect people, or is it a free gift for anyone, and the "spark" nesseary to invite the holy Spirit resides in all of mankind?
We do all share this common, godgiven, indwelling standard for right and wrong, dont we?
Isnt it up to you, to decide weather to do the right thing or ignore your inner voice?
The bible says that you have to proove yourself worthy, but how could you, if that decision is taken away from you to begin with?
And if you wouldnt be left that decision, how could there be any true fairness and justice, that doesent violate this inhernt voice, of which we must assume that its similar to gods own?
You do require the help of Jesus, but does that automatically mean you cannot come to the conclusion that your not goina make it on your own?
Lazarus is a good example btw, allso for how youve got to allways take the whole story into account.
I mean Jesus didnt just go to the tomb and resurrected him without any cause, his sisters sent for Jesus and asked for help.
...they sure figured they couldnt save their brother without the aid of the Lord. The point being is theyve asked Jesus to come and help, just as you need to respond to Jesus knocking on your door.
Note how youve got to invite the "bad guys" too, for them to come and mess up your life. God allways obeys his own laws.

God bless

 

Hi Brother Dolour,

First, I don't think I said, but will now, welcome to the BaptistBoard ! If one concludes the Holy Spirit is only the initiator of bringing about one to become saved it leaves this question, if the natures of those who respond to the gospel and those who do not respond to the gospel is the same before the "spark", why then do some people end up believing while others do not? You are a scientist, thus you know identical causes put on identical objects will have identical effects, but the preaching of the gospel has different effects on different people, some believe, some do not, therefore I conclude the reason this is, is because those who receive the gospel already have the Holy Spirit in them and thus have a new nature enabling them to have faith in the gospel and and repent while those who do not believe cannot because they do not possess a new nature (only the flesh).

Having a conscience and having the ability to produce faith in the gospel are two different things. In our natural state scripture tells us, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14). And also, "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:8). And again, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1:18). Notice those who receive the gospel as the "power of God" are already "saved" (present tense), not will be saved.

In regards to salvation scripture is clear it is not dependent on the will of man, but on God "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" (Romans 9:16) and "12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." ( John 1:12-13). When scripture talks of one accepting salvation, it talks of Christ making us accepted by His sacrificie, not us accepting Christ "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved" (Ephesians 1:6)

The Bible does not stay "prove yourself worthy". Nobody is "worthy' of the sacrifice of God's son.

The Bible tells us all without Christ are guilty, "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God" (Romans 3:19) and if one has broken one law they are as guilty as they had broken them all, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.' (James 2:10).

Now if there are two criminals before a judge and the judge pronounces one guilty and sentences him to death and pardons the other, one received justice and the other received mercy. No injustice was done in either case. This is exactly how election and predestination of God's people works with God.

You cannot respond to Jesus knocking unless he first has given you ears to hear, for example the Jews in the Old Testament could not hear God because he hadn't given them ears to hear, " 4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day" (Deuteronomy 29:4) Faith according to scripture is not produced by us, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" (Ephesians 2:8). Moreover, regarding faith we read of Jesus that he is , " the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2). Salvation is God working in us according to his will, not our will for it says, " work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13). Scripture tells us before being born again we are "dead in sins" (Ephesians 2:1, 2:5, and Colossians 2:13). A dead man cannot do anything including believe or repent until they are first risen from the dead by God.

God bless you.

Brother Joe

 

Hi Jospeh,

first up, the post turned out too long, so its goina be split into two.
Since you took so much time and effort to write it, i felt like i shouldnt leave anything out.

Thanks alot, and its nice to be around. In my place the "drought of God's Word" is really really bad, so i appreciate the chance to exchange my thoughts with other believers.

I can only speak from my own expirience and POV ofc, but to me it appears, as silly as it sounds, that i really didnt need to believe anything.
God has proven to me alot of things, and i conclude that if one doesent believe, he didnt spent enough time and effort on looking into the evidence the Lord has provided for us.

Good point, however i might add, that i for my part started the journey to find "the truth" in hinduism, buddhism, esoterics, the occult and other fringe areas.
Ive been a strong believer in "Panspermia" for roughly 20 years, and during the entire time failed to ask a simple question:
If evolution cant take place here, why would that be any different on any other planet?
(to my defense, a scientific doctrine says, you dont need to explain an explanation, to avoid an endless ever repeating chain of explanations )

As mentioned above, its been loads and loads of evidence that has drawn me to Christianity.
All the stuff the Bible claims, which i considered totally ludicrous at first, have stood the test of cincere inverstigation, and have prooven to be eerily accurate in many respects.
The point being is, i didnt really need to do any leap into faith, or blindly believe anything.
After months and months of digging into the material, it was simply undeniable, and i concluded that this is the truth, weather i like it or not.
So, while i can ofc understand that conclusion, my own expirience tells me a somewhat different story, one of God taking some serious efforts of providing a chain of evidence, that can turn even a guy like me into a believer.
The Bible beats any imaginable odds single handed, and as someone whos been tought to think rational, i couldnt ever doubt something like this.
And i find it hard to believe, that anyone whos confronted with theese things could just dismiss it.
THAT would be something that requires actual believe, recognising the supernatural origin of the Bible, and its truth, totally doesent.

I dont deny any of that(taking it in the literal sense)at all, but none of the above actually adresses the moment or the required circumstances of getting saved.
Lets go through this real quick. 1Cor.2:14 "natural man" imo refers to those who are still "in the flesh", and i think we all agree that the unsafed are disconnected from God, and are just totally blindfolded.
It doesent mention anything regarding weather or not that is a permanent state tho.
Rom.8:8 God will throw the unsafed into the lake of fire, right? So its pretty clear that hes not plesed with them at all.
But it again doesent adress weather this state of "are in the flesh" is permanent etc.
1Cor.1:18 Particulary the same deal as 1Cor.2:14, but notice that it says "them that perish". 2Thess.2:10 says they perish bc they believe the lie.
Now, i was believing "the lie" for the majority of my life, conclusively its not something that cannot change, or is inherent right off the bat.

Rom.9 Well, nobody wants to be tormented for eternity i guess, so if man had a word on this, he would totally choose to not be thrown into the pit.
But ofc man doesent, neither can he run from it, but its God whose goina judge.
John 1 Its written that God knows the heart, and that even the Demons believe, even tho they clearly dont deserve salvation.
So "just" believing isnt enough according to scripture, otherwise all the Demons would go to heaven, right?
God has the last Word here, and you cannot force it, or fake it, but have to have the holy Spirit transform your heart.
Yet it doesent adress weather responding to Jesus knocking at the door is induced by God or an act of free choice.
Note that i dont deny every one of us having to be made into the man that God wants us to be, by the work of the Lord. We cannot do that.

Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Sure, one of the first things that ive figured on my way of becoming a Christian, was that the 10 Commandmends are not "just" the law, but allso a "Mirror" that God puts in front of us.
Just look into it, and you realize that yove messed it up.
That helped me conclude that i cannot do it without Jesus.

By the perverse Law of mortal man this might stand true, that sense of morale however tells you(or at least it tells me) that this would indeed be a horrible injustice.
Put aside what mortal teachers tought you for a second and think of it.
I dont see any scriptual evidence for this, and i dont see any affirmation of mens law from God either.

 

part #2

They were disobedient to the Lord shortly after that, and punished for it, so clearly it cant talk about them becoming saved.
Whatever it means exactly, it didnt infuse them with a rock solid faith.

It mentiones that faith is required, as confirmed by Jesus, and that its not achieved by works, but by Gods grace alone.
This again doesent contain any mentioning of preselection whatsoever.
Notice how ones own convictions cause certain interpretations being projected on the text.
It doesent really say anything, same as any of the above quotes, about God taking any preselection on whom this gift will be granted.
Yes faith is the requirnment, yes the work of transformation performed by the Holy Spirit is a nessity, yes the act of washing away your sins is performed by the Lord, but imo that refers to Jesus on the cross, not to any preselective process.

Hebrews 12 is a short summary of God's plot, in the context of this verse i read Jesus being the Alpha and Omega.
"our faith" refers to the Christian Religion, not ones individual belief or salvation.

Read from 10 to 15, its a reassurance of Gods aid, to the work of the Church while they are in the "midst of a crooked and perverse nation".
It doesent deal with salvation at all, but with God giving them the strenght to fulfill their task, during theese hard times.

True, Jesus needs to first raise you from the dead, weve had that Lazarus example allready.
An example that mirrors what Jesus said about him knocking and we having to respond, and which is affirmed by Matthew 7:7-8
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."
Note how it says "every one", its not refering to any select group of people.

I hope this is sort of showing how the personal POV is affecting how we percieve what we read, it sure did for me.
Id like to wholeheartedly thank you for this very elaborate and well done post, really appreciate it.

God bless You.

 

Hi Dolour, the issue is not that we live in our physical universe. The issue is your assertion that universe includes an existent future. Ephesians 3:18 does not address knowledge of an existent future, you are adding that surmise to the extent of knowledge.

Good luck on your quest for truth, and remember I stand ready to present answers based on what scripture actually says.

God Bless

 

Hi Van,

Ephisians does talks about the 4 dimensionality of our reality, which matches Einsteins concept of spacetime(contraire to popular believe Einstein was a confessing Christian btw).
I think that the prohphets being able to forecast future events in great detail, is pretty good verification of our scientific concept of how time works.
It might not be explicitly stated, but theres a wealth of examples in the Bible, which is imo just as good. The Bible allso uses examples to clarify things after all.
Those guys allway describe how their taken to a certain place in spirit, and witness the events they prophecise.
They dont get a message like channellers from the New Age, they actually are there and SEE how it turns out.
Its hard to assume that God would show them some sort of illusion(that would totally not be backed by scripture), since they state to be "taken there", i.e. existing times and places,
which perfectly lines up with experimental data.
Science DID sucessfully demonstrate, in noumerous experiments, how time can be "bent", and is by no means a constant.
You, so to speak, can alter the velocity/angle with wich you travel that dimensional axis.
A 2axis time vs velocity diagram is a good way to express this, the steeper your gain on the velocity axis gets, the shallower it becomes on the diagrams time axis, and vice versa.
Time is a whole dimension on its own, and can be described as driving down a road, only bc you dont see whats 100miles ahead doesent mean the road ends where your visial perception does.

regards

/edit: And dont get me wrong on this one, ive learned that Scripture is a great place to look for verification of a concept since, like stated earlier, modern day science allways just
catches up to biblical knowledge.
If the Bible doesent say a similar thing(mind that the prophets only had limited means in terms of vocabulary to describe those things, so those descriptions usually dont match how
"modern men" would express them), a theorie is either incomplete or false.

 

Affirmative.

So which is it? You are going both ways Van. It's Van vs. Van.

Of course the Lord softens hearts. No one would come into the Kingdom of God without that taking place.

Look at Ezekiel 36:26,27 :
"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you a heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws." (See also 11:19)

A heat of stone being transformed into a heart of flesh by God. That is indeed the Lord softening hearts.