God neither causes nor creates evil. God may allow evil to have its way as a means to an end. The causing or creating of evil would make on evil.
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John Piper
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No. Nice strawman, though. God can use saints and unregenerates to fulfill his will.
I grasp it just fine. God caused Pilate and Herod to carry out the death sentence against Christ and fulfill the ultimate plan of all eternity. There are verses that show God explicitly directed Herod and Pilate's actions. You have not shown where God explicitly holds them responsible for the actions He made them perform.
“In vain I punished your people;
they did not respond to correction.
Your sword has devoured your prophets
like a ravenous lion." --Jer. 2:30
So in this case God caused Israel to rebel (remember, nothing happens without God decreeing it), then he punished them for rebelliousness, yet they did not repent.
God punished rebellious Israel because He wanted Israel to repent. Under Calvinism, only God can grant repentance. Yet, still they did not repent. So how can Israel not repent when God is the author of repentance and He wanted them to repent?
they did not respond to correction.
Your sword has devoured your prophets
like a ravenous lion." --Jer. 2:30
So in this case God caused Israel to rebel (remember, nothing happens without God decreeing it), then he punished them for rebelliousness, yet they did not repent.
God punished rebellious Israel because He wanted Israel to repent. Under Calvinism, only God can grant repentance. Yet, still they did not repent. So how can Israel not repent when God is the author of repentance and He wanted them to repent?
Your post makes no sense. No one knows what you are talking about???
You do not understand the term decree. If you did you would not make this statement. Your agenda is blinding you to biblical truth. You do not understand the teaching you are trying to be critical of.....here is what cals say, unlike what you are offering.....
where in this statement do you see God "causing" Israel to rebel????
And so we're just going to ignore Isaiah 45:7 and Lamentations 3:38??
No I didn't ignore it I just did not misinterpret it to cause God to be a sinner which is what happens when you accuse Him of creating evil.
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You are confused rm. You are relying on KJV language where the word "evil" is used.
In Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things." (NIV)
The HCSB and ISV also reads :create disaster
ESV : create calamity
NASB : creating calamity
NET : creates calamity
KJV : create evil
That's a BIG difference
Lamentations 3:38
"Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that both calamities and good things come? (NIV)
Net :calamity
KJV : evil
Amos 3:6
"When a trumpet sounds in a city,
do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city,
has not the Lord caused it?" (NIV)
NET : disaster
ESV,HCSB,NASB calamity
KJV : evil
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No sir I am not. I am relying on what is being said by posters on this board.
So even though the Bible says God creates רַע (evil, bad) it doesn't mean God creates evil/bad??? Umm okay.
No, it doesn't. It is a weak translation on the part of the KJV. As Rippon pointed out using various sources, a more accurate translation would be "calamity."
God is not the author of sin or "evil." But he is the one that brings the natural disasters on this world. He causes the rain to fall upon the just and the unjust alike. And when an earthquake hits it affects both the just and the unjust alike.
So רַע in Genesis 3:22 means evil (Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”)
And רַע in Proverbs 12:20 means evil (Deceit is in the hearts of those who plot evil, but those who promote peace have joy.)
And רַע in Psalm 34:13-14 also means evil (Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit. Turn away from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.)
And even in the same book of Isaiah 47:10, רַע means evil ("You felt secure in your wickedness and said, 'No one sees me,' Your wisdom and your knowledge, they have deluded you; For you have said in your heart, 'I am, and there is no one besides me.')
...yet you say רַע in Isaiah 45:7 doesn't mean evil??? That doesn't add up.
Of course God is not the author of sin or "evil" in that He is not a sinner but He has willed all things into existence...including evil.
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You are ignoring the words of Isaiah, the context--the fact that Isaiah is speaking to Cyrus and describing the sovereignty and uniqueness of God. It would be foolish for Isaiah to intimate that God is a God that creates evil or is the author thereof. But it makes sense to describe to unsaved Cyrus that he is the one that brings disasters or calamities upon him.
Isa 45:1-9
(1) Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
(2) I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
(3) And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
(4) For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
(5) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
(6) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
(7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (bring disaster or calamity): I the LORD do all these things.
(8) Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
(9) Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Soon after he says "Woe to him that strives with His Maker."
Are you going to argue with God when He brings a flood your way?
That part I agree. But Isaiah is addressing the all inclusiveness of God's act of creation—an act that includes the creation of good and evil.
You say I'm ignoring context but you're ignoring the biblical context—the fact that רַע here means what it means in so many other places...evil. That is scripture confirming scripture.
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Does God create calamity, or does He use calamity?
For example, Pharaoh did much harm to the Israeli people. God formed Pharaoh, positioned Pharaoh as the next ruler, allowed Pharaohs heart to harden and confirmed that hardness. But what exactly did God create?
Is it not true that the only "creative" work was overseeing the formation of Pharaoh? The rest was using that which He had formed to His Glory?
The same with calamity, mayhem, evil.
God did not create evil, rather God took the iniquity found in the heathen and used it for his purpose.
In my opinion, Isaiah is using what we might consider a figure of speech. Sort of like me saying I made a mess of the tax form. Or a soldier "brought calamity" upon the enemy. My mother used to say of a person that they were "evil personified."
God did not "Create" evil, the Bible says of the enemy, "iniquity was found in him."
Nope.
For example, Pharaoh did much harm to the Israeli people. God formed Pharaoh, positioned Pharaoh as the next ruler, allowed Pharaohs heart to harden and confirmed that hardness. But what exactly did God create?
Is it not true that the only "creative" work was overseeing the formation of Pharaoh? The rest was using that which He had formed to His Glory?
The same with calamity, mayhem, evil.
God did not create evil, rather God took the iniquity found in the heathen and used it for his purpose.
In my opinion, Isaiah is using what we might consider a figure of speech. Sort of like me saying I made a mess of the tax form. Or a soldier "brought calamity" upon the enemy. My mother used to say of a person that they were "evil personified."
God did not "Create" evil, the Bible says of the enemy, "iniquity was found in him."
Ezekiel 28:
“You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire."
“You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you."
Did God create the evil found in the anointed cherub?“You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire."
“You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you."
Nope.
Scripture clearly says that God doesn't just use calamity but that He created it.
And if calamity is grouped with mayhem and evil then Scripture clearly teaches that God created evil.
Do you remember this event in Israel's history?
Num 16:1 Now Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men:
Num 16:2 And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:
Num 16:3 And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?
--This was the sin of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. They opposed the authority of Moses.
Moses gave them instructions:
Num 16:16 And Moses said unto Korah, Be thou and all thy company before the LORD, thou, and they, and Aaron, to morrow:
Num 16:17 And take every man his censer, and put incense in them, and bring ye before the LORD every man his censer, two hundred and fifty censers; thou also, and Aaron, each of you his censer.
Korah wasn't alone in his rebellion. He had influenced others.
Num 16:19 And Korah gathered all the congregation against them unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto all the congregation.
Then the Lord spoke
Num 16:20 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
Num 16:21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.
Num 16:25 And Moses rose up and went unto Dathan and Abiram; and the elders of Israel followed him.
Num 16:26 And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins.
--However, all the congregation left, and only their families remained.
Here was the judgment of God
Num 16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
Num 16:29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me.
Num 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
Num 16:31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
Num 16:32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
Num 16:33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
Num 16:34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
IMO, God used an earthquake to carry out his judgment. It is a calamity, a natural occurrence. The miracle is in the timing. That the earthquake would come at the exact time that Moses said is in and of itself miraculous.
It is Korah and his friends that did evil; not God. God did no evil. Evil cannot be attributed to God, only to Korah, et. al. God simply used a natural disaster to carry out his righteous judgment on those that had sinned. God does no evil.
I do not differentiate between "doing" evil and "creating" evil.
Though the one that does evil is not responsible for the one that has created evil; the one who has created evil is just as responsible as the one who does the evil, just as if he is the one who is doing the evil.
Brother, all of this stems from people not realizing all of God's attributes, love, wrath, vengence, patience(longsuffering), holiness, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, sovereignity, graciousness, justice, mercy, righteousness, immutibilty, are all holy attributes as He is holy. Even God being angry with sinners, and especially Satan, is an holy attribute. Him casting the reprobate into the lake of fire is Him being Just/Fair, giving them what they justly/fairly deserved. When people say God does not get angry, then one of His attributes has been assaulted. When they say He did not create all things...yes even evil...then that attribute has been assaulted. They are making Him more like man than who He really is...God.
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