John R Rice and Jack Hyles were not dispensationalists?

[Martin Marprelate]

Please enlighten me. What future does Covenant Theology say waits for ethnic Israel?

I am certainly not able to speak for all those who believe in Covenant Theology, and I am not aware that there is one universally approved position.
My reading of Romans 11 leads me to the view that there may well be a revival amongst enthic Jews before the Lord's Return. I pray that there will be a revival among many ethnic groups, including the British, the Arabs and the Iranians. But IMO there will be no special arrangement for the Jews; if they are saved, they will be so in the same way as everyone else: the Holy Spirit leading them to repentance and faith in Christ.

 

[John of Japan]

I am certainly not able to speak for all those who believe in Covenant Theology, and I am not aware that there is one universally approved position.
My reading of Romans 11 leads me to the view that there may well be a revival amongst enthic Jews before the Lord's Return. I pray that there will be a revival among many ethnic groups, including the British, the Arabs and the Iranians. But IMO there will be no special arrangement for the Jews; if they are saved, they will be so in the same way as everyone else: the Holy Spirit leading them to repentance and faith in Christ.

Let me clarify. "Ethnic Israel" is a term used in eschatology for people who are Jewish by blood as opposed to Gentiles. Therefore, it points to a separate future for especially Jewish people. That future includes the tribulation, when it is prophesied that Israel will return to their land and become a nation again. Many believe that this began happening with the restoration in 1948. Therefore, it is specifically a dispensational term.

The belief that Jews are now like Gentiles with no prophesied future history to be fulfilled is called replacement theology, or supersessionism, and is the belief that the church has replaced the Jewish nation.

Concerning covenant theology, it is the belief that there are two, maybe three (depending on the theologian) covenants that God has made with the lost sinner and also within the trinity. (These are not the biblical covenants: Adamic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic; I have known people who thought that is what covenant theology referred to.) It believes that there is no future for Israel, regardless of the prophecies and the Davidic Covenant. I have various theological tomes which teach this: systematic theologies by Berkhof, Hodge, etc.

If you knew all this, forgive me for relating it, but I wasn't sure you did from your posts.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Let me clarify. "Ethnic Israel" is a term used in eschatology for people who are Jewish by blood as opposed to Gentiles. Therefore, it points to a separate future for especially Jewish people. That future includes the tribulation, when it is prophesied that Israel will return to their land and become a nation again. Many believe that this began happening with the restoration in 1948. Therefore, it is specifically a dispensational term.

The belief that Jews are now like Gentiles with no prophesied future history to be fulfilled is called replacement theology, or supersessionism, and is the belief that the church has replaced the Jewish nation.

Concerning covenant theology, it is the belief that there are two, maybe three (depending on the theologian) covenants that God has made with the lost sinner and also within the trinity. (These are not the biblical covenants: Adamic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic; I have known people who thought that is what covenant theology referred to.) It believes that there is no future for Israel, regardless of the prophecies and the Davidic Covenant. I have various theological tomes which teach this: systematic theologies by Berkhof, Hodge, etc.

If you knew all this, forgive me for relating it, but I wasn't sure you did from your posts.

I did know it, but I do forgive you. I understand 'ethnic Israel' to be used for those of the Jewish race wherever they may live, as opposed to 'national Israel' which is one of the nations on the Eastern shore of the Mediterranean.
I am not aware of any nation that does not have a 'prophesied future history' (Genesis 12:3 etc.). What I believe is not 'replacement theology' or 'supercessionism,' but Inclusion Theology: '... that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the Gospel' (Eph. 3:6), and that this is not an afterthought by God, but part of his eternal purpose (c.f. Isaiah 48:5-7 etc.).
I think that if you read William Hendriksen's book, called 'Israel in Prophecy' (I had the book, but when I went to look for it just now, I can't find it!), that although he does not agree with Dispensationalism, he is more hopeful for the Jews than Berkhof is.

I will close by saying that Baptist Covenant Theology differs from the Presbyterian version more than one might suppose, and recommend to all readers "The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology" by Pascal Denault. Here is a review: The Broken Wharfe Pamphlet | Pascal Denault - Why I Published the Revised Edition of The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology

 

[JesusFan]

I did know it, but I do forgive you. I understand 'ethnic Israel' to be used for those of the Jewish race wherever they may live, as opposed to 'national Israel' which is one of the nations on the Eastern shore of the Mediterranean.
I am not aware of any nation that does not have a 'prophesied future history' (Genesis 12:3 etc.). What I believe is not 'replacement theology' or 'supercessionism,' but Inclusion Theology: '... that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the Gospel' (Eph. 3:6), and that this is not an afterthought by God, but part of his eternal purpose (c.f. Isaiah 48:5-7 etc.).
I think that if you read William Hendriksen's book, called 'Israel in Prophecy' (I had the book, but when I went to look for it just now, I can't find it!), that although he does not agree with Dispensationalism, he is more hopeful for the Jews than Berkhof is.

I will close by saying that Baptist Covenant Theology differs from the Presbyterian version more than one might suppose, and recommend to all readers "The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology" by Pascal Denault. Here is a review: The Broken Wharfe Pamphlet | Pascal Denault - Why I Published the Revised Edition of The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology

Reformed Baptists would hold to Charles Spurgeon view I believe in eschatology, that God still has dealings for national Israel, but that will be in great tribulation time, and at the Second Coming they will be converted to Jesus as their promised messiah , that would be the historical premil view

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Reformed Baptists would hold to Charles Spurgeon view I believe in eschatology, that God still has dealings for national Israel, but that will be in great tribulation time, and at the Second Coming they will be converted to Jesus as their promised messiah , that would be the historical premil view

Spurgeon was certainly Historic Premil, but others are Amil (like me) and others Postmil.

 

[John of Japan]

I did know it, but I do forgive you. I understand 'ethnic Israel' to be used for those of the Jewish race wherever they may live, as opposed to 'national Israel' which is one of the nations on the Eastern shore of the Mediterranean.

Got it. Sorry! Forgiveness is nice.

I am not aware of any nation that does not have a 'prophesied future history' (Genesis 12:3 etc.). What I believe is not 'replacement theology' or 'supercessionism,' but Inclusion Theology: '... that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the Gospel' (Eph. 3:6), and that this is not an afterthought by God, but part of his eternal purpose (c.f. Isaiah 48:5-7 etc.).

Okay, I'll try to work through this, but at this point it sounds too general to me. To me, Gen. 12:3 is about the Abrahamic covenant, not really a prophecy of "all nations."

I think that if you read William Hendriksen's book, called 'Israel in Prophecy' (I had the book, but when I went to look for it just now, I can't find it!), that although he does not agree with Dispensationalism, he is more hopeful for the Jews than Berkhof is.

Interesting. Never heard of that book, though I have Hendriksen's commentary on the pastoral epistles from 1957, so he's old school!

I will close by saying that Baptist Covenant Theology differs from the Presbyterian version more than one might suppose, and recommend to all readers "The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology" by Pascal Denault. Here is a review: The Broken Wharfe Pamphlet | Pascal Denault - Why I Published the Revised Edition of The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology

I'll keep my mind open, but a brief look on the Internet looks like the Baptist version is just the original with the Baptist distinctives added in.

 

[JesusFan]

Spurgeon was certainly Historic Premil, but others are Amil (like me) and others Postmil.

True, and still others like Dr Sproul partial preterist, think only heretical view would be full blown preterist

 

[JesusFan]

Got it. Sorry! Forgiveness is nice.

Okay, I'll try to work through this, but at this point it sounds too general to me. To me, Gen. 12:3 is about the Abrahamic covenant, not really a prophecy of "all nations."

Interesting. Never heard of that book, though I have Hendriksen's commentary on the pastoral epistles from 1957, so he's old school!

I'll keep my mind open, but a brief look on the Internet looks like the Baptist version is just the original with the Baptist distinctives added in.

Big disagreement on the issue of "just how new was the New Covenant"