John Wesley's Deceit

So far its Wesley's word against Augustus. I think I stay with Wesley. He certanly had the biggest following.

Martin may know more about it than I. I can't find much on this Stephan Tompkins. He must of not been too well known.

 

==I am not protecting Wesley. I am a Calvinist for crying out loud. However I am also a historian who believes in the importance of sources and context. All I am getting from you is selective quotes.

 

It seems it was the word of one against the other Rippon. You can make any accuation, but that does not make it true.

Toplady was mad or jealous because Wesley sold an article or book with 3 blank pages and Toplady was mad because he thought Wesley made some money off of the book with blank pages. jeepers it was a squabble seems to me.

Wesley apparently felt that Toplady had to pay for his wrong by death. It was a squabble.

 

==Since I have a copy of that book in my personal library I can respond to these quotes. First this is a secondary source and not a primary source. Though I admit it is a great book. Second you don't quote the whole section. Tompkins goes on to say:

"He had always done it, apparently believing that good reading was worth repeating and that if he agreed with others' opinions they were his own and should be broadcast as such, giving them wider readership, at least among Methodists. This time, however, he was in trouble. Johnson himself graciously told Wesley that he appreciated the complement, but others were less generous and publicly decried his disgraceful fraud - especially, with depressing predictability, enemy Methodists. Toplady gleefully trumpeted Wesley's intellectual bankruptcy in The Old Fox Tarr'd and Feather'd, and again Fletcher came to Wesley's defense. Wesley's only response was to reprint the trace with an acknowledgement to Johnson." (page 178-179)

So let's see what we can pull from Tompkins. I am only using this because you pulled it out as a source. First Wesley did not see his actions as being wrong. He believed it was ok to pull what someone else said into his writings for the purpose of spreading the message. Second Wesley was told by Johnson that everyone would not be so kind about it. Third that "everyone" were those Methodists who were not in agreement with Wesley and Toplady, who Tomkins points out, was "gleeful" about pointing out Wesley's error. So this source, though secondary, does little to help your case. It portrays Wesley not as a liar but as someone who thought what he was doing was ok. This source also portrays Toplady as someone who played the game of "gotcha" and was thrilled that he could point out what Wesley had done.

Now Rippon, don't try to run from this source. You brought it into the discussion. You quoted the parts of it you felt proved your case and you failed to quote the parts that maybe did not fit your case. Either way this is why I am always stressing the importance of context and sources. I understand why some get frustrated/angry but it is very important for me to be able to see where you are getting your information from.

==Why do you leave out the section where Tomkins points out Toplady's attitude: "Now this fraud had proved him him a criminal worthy to be transported to America if not hanged" (pg170). While Wesley's actions here were without defense they hardly warrant a hanging.

 

==I have said nothing about it (just so you know, however, I have not taken sides on the Wesley/Toplady controversy. Though I am clearly much more in line with Toplady theologically. I see both Wesley and Toplady as sinners who were saved by grace. Neither man was sinless or perfect. I also see that both of them were in the wrong in this case.) I am still trying to get you to provide a biography of your sources.

==I have yet to see evidence. All I have seen are quotes.

==So you are putting Wesley in with Benny Hinn? Amazing! You quote Spurgeon, yet you ignored when Allan pointed out (earlier in this thread) Spurgeon's comments on John Wesley. Again, I ask you, how should I take this?

"Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitefield and John Wesley. The character of John Wesley stands beyond all imputation for self-sacrifice, zeal, holiness, and communion with God; he lived far above the ordinary level of common Christians, and was one "of whom the world was not worthy." I believe there are multitudes of men who cannot see these truths, or, at least, cannot see them in the way in which we put them, who nevertheless have received Christ as their Saviour, and are as dear to the heart of the God of grace as the soundest Calvinist in or out of Heaven" -Spurgeon

 

Rippon,

What is your goal in this discussion?

Do you believe John Wesley was a liar who ended up in hell?

 

OK I tracked down the tract in question on microform.
Yes, it is twelve pages long.
No, none of the pages are blank.
It clearly is a parody.

The title page says "The doctrine of absolute predestination stated and asserted. By the Reverend Mr. A------- T------."

The English Short Title Catalog notes that "The Reverend Mr. A------- T------ = Augustus Toplady. An abridgment by John Wesley of Toplady’s 1769 translation of the work by Girolamo Zanchi (Wesley claimed Toplady was the author, not the translator)."

After the title page is the following:

"ADVERTISEMENT

It is granted, that the ensuing Tract is in good Measure a Translation. Nevertheless, considering the unparallelled Modesty and Self-diffidence of the young Translator, and the Tenderness wherewith he treats his Opponents. it may well pass for an Original."

 

==What a second, YOU started this discussion. As a person interested in history you should know that it is therefore YOUR responsibility to provide source information.

 

==O, I have been paying attention. However I must wonder about you since the mention of "The Old Fox Tarred and Feathered" came directly from a source you quoted (the next paragraph in fact). I am speaking of Tomkins. I knew you would try to run from that source as soon I as pointed out that Tomkins (YOUR source) does no favors to Toplady.

==And Toplady, the man you are defending, wished to hang Wesley. Is that really a defensable attitude? I don't think so.

==Of course Spurgeon was in a much better position to know the truth about Wesley than you. Also you clearly have an agenda. So who am I going to believe? You? Spurgeon? I will go with Spurgeon. I cannot believe Toplady since he clearly also had an agenda that caused him to gleefully (quoting your source again) expose Wesley's error (instead of dealing with the matter privately as Jesus instructed).

 

The microfilm was released in 2004; the images are of the tract in the John Rylands University Library of Manchester. The Short Catalog note was written much later than 1872.
Apparently in 1872 an editor of Wesley's works chose to include the abridgement for the first time, but it was never a secret who wrote it.
Toplady seemed to know right away, and Wesley's response to Toplady's diatribes was a de facto admission of the tract's origin.

 

Could you give a list of Wesley's lies for us? I am no historian but it seems to me Wesley thought the one time he used someone else's material, he thought it would be ok, but Toplady was not going to let it rest, so Wesley printed the trace with his acknowledgements. What else was he supposed to do.
Wesley's only response was to reprint the trace with an acknowledgement to Johnson." (page 178-179)


Got any more?

 

==Again, I am using a source you quoted from (Tomkins).

==No, but then again I don't put Toplady on the same level as Paul.

==And he did it with "gleefullness" according to your source. Is that in agreement with Matthew 19, Proverbs 24:17, and other verses? Hardly.

==I would assert that the position Wesley read into Toplady was what he believed Toplady actually believed. As I earlier pointed out, from a source YOU quoted first in support of your position, Wesley did not believe he was doing wrong by doing this. In other words he was not willfully guilty of plagerism (etc). It was sort of a innocent guilt. I have seen this in papers where people think it is ok to mix a sources ideas in with their own without citing the source in anyway. They were not trying to commit plagerism but they did. I think the same is true with Wesley. As Spurgeon said ""Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan". You have yet to explain why we should believe you and not Spurgeon.

==That, and the fact that you clearly have a very strong bias against John Wesley (as did Toplady). Spurgeon disagreed strongly with many of Wesley's teachings, as do I, yet he realized that Wesley was a godly man at heart. Spurgeon had no reason to defend Wesley, as I don't, but he corrected those who wished to slander Wesley.

I would also warn you about making judgments on another believer's character or motive. Mainly when you stand at such a historical distance. We can have our views but it is God who is the final judge of the believer's motives (1Cor 4:5). As far as I can tell there is no evidence that Wesley willfully did something he believed was wrong. He made mistakes, maybe even sins, but I think he was trying to make a point. Unless you are sinless you should not throw stones at Wesley over this. I'm fairly certain you have sinned before even though you had good motives and did not mean to.

==You cited Tomkins as a source and now you want to back away from that by saying he is a fan of Wesley. As far as I recall you made no such disclaimer earlier when you were quoting what Tomkins said about Wesley's "fraud".

==Lies? You have not given a single shred of historical evidence that proves Wesley willfully/knowingly did wrong. In fact Tomkins, who you did cite, points out that Wesley did not seem to think he had done wrong. Are you now backing away from Tomkins since he no longer seems to support your position? What I believe about Wesley's actions were explained earlier.

==What about Toplady's "contemptible conduct towards" Wesley? My friend, it takes two to battle.

==Source? In fact I want sources (PLURAL). I want what Wesley said, the full statement/article, and what Toplady did/said/believed. I also want you to prove, via original sources, that Wesley knowingly lied about Toplady. I am not aware of what Wesley said about Toplady after his death. I'm not going to take your word for it and I am not going to accept quotes or copy/paste. I want links to original sources or a biography of original sources.