John Wycliff – Everybody Should Have a Bible

I don't have a problem with anyone burning anything they own.

Just checkin'....

 

No problem, thanks for checking. No one should have personal property taken from them I hope I didn't give that impression.

In the Bible we often read that God punishes people by leaving them to there own sinfulness. I just think we can help in Jesus's ministry by helping people avoid the temptation to sin and encouraging them to give up the things which lead them to sin.

 

Because if somebody just decided to pick up the Bible up and run off with it under their coat, there would likely not be another Bible to replace it. Printing press...wasn't around....hello?

God bless,

Grant </font>[/QUOTE]If the Bible was readily available to all the 'wealthy' and 'literate' people, WHO would be stealing them?

I can see it now, the bum on the corner of elm and 1st street reading the Bible to himself:

"And the little pig said 'wee wee wee, all the way home' to the Jews who didn't eat him" The End.

Funny Funny

 

So then you are arguing that people were for the most part poor or illiterate...which means at the time having a Bible in their household wouldn't have done much good.

God bless,

Grant

 

Originally posted by Carson Weber:

If they were illiterate, what good would it do them to have ANY book?

 

Thank you for making my point.

I can just as easily claim that John Wycliff had an agenda. He disagreed with more or less every major Catholic teaching, and his only way to enforce his new beliefs was to claim that the Church had no authority, but that the only authority was the Bible. And so he went on a crusade to claim that everyone can interpret their own Bible, because that got people to join his cause, and therefore he could propogate his false beliefs.

God bless,

Grant

 

What was your point? (the one you think I made)

What you just said is a GOOD THING!

AMEN!

 

Wow there are such a lot of
eccentrics (I did say loonies but that is insulting - I apologise) around in religion.

[ February 01, 2003, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]

 

AngelMum,

You Asked:

"If the Bible's were free for the reading, why were they chained to the Monastery walls?"

Hmmm.... Let's think about this. It took 20 monks approximately a year to put out a single, accurate copy of a Bible. This meant that Bibles were extremely rare and precious to these monks and to people. Now do you think that with all this work going in to these precious books that they would want someone to just walk off with them. Also moving them around would cause much wear and tear on them. It seems more likely to me that in chaining Bibles up, they were actually making them more available to more people by protecting them against the elements and theft.

Secondly, the binding of Bibles in that day and age were many times inlaid with gold (i.e. precious metal last I checked). Up to 20 pounds of it. This was an indication of the great love they had for the Bible. The English after they became the Hormonal Anglican Protestant Church, were even known to have taken the Bibles and burned them to get the gold out to pay for there wars. So now we have Bibles with precious metals in them. Do you not think it would be wise to chain them so that someone could not easily walk away with them who had no reverence for them and only a desire for the Gold?

More myth, little substance on this thread. It would behove you to consider the conditions of the times when you are making outlandish statements and accusations or should I say regurgitating the same old ficticious lies that you have been fed by those who hate the Catholic Church and will distort any point of history to legitimize there doctrines.


Blessings

 

Hey Net, do me a favor and edit your loonies comment, it would mean a lot to me.

 

Aussie Baptist,

"Hi there, I picked this up of another website. I do not know if it is accurate or not, maybe Carson or someone could look at the details and respond?"

Here goes.

"The Bible was placed on Rome's Index of Forbidden Books list by the Council of Toulouse/Toledo in the year 1229. It remained there until the index was discontinued at Vatican Council II. Anyone reading or owning a 'forbidden' book was anathematized, or cursed and remanded to hell for doing so. "

Well first of all there is a serious probem with the Bible being placed on a list of forbidden books in 1229. You see there was no list of forbidden books untill 1559. So right away the author of your statement looses credibility.

Secondly, how are you with the gender neutral Bibles that are coming out today? Do you think there could be Bibles printed that are corrupt. How about the JW's New World Translation? Or the Mormon versions of which Joseph Smith added and changed some things. I would expect that there would be instances of this throughout history and that is the case in Toulouse. The Bibles that were forbidden and burned were corrupt translations. They were published by a group called the Albegesians, who though that fornication was no sin. encouraged suicide, there were two Gods, and marriage was evil. Certainly not the type of people I would want translating my Bible.


Cannon 14 from the Council of Toulouse says that the Roman Catholic Church:

"Forbids the laity to have in their possession any copy of the books of the Old and New Testament.... and most strictly forbids these works in the vulgar tongue."

Roman Catholic apologist Karl Keating confirms this fact when he writes that, "the bishops at Toulouse restricted the use of the Bible until the [Albigensian] heresy was ended." (Page 45, Catholicism and Fundamentalism, by Karl Keating). The peculiar thing is that the Bible remained on the Index of Forbidden Books for another 730 years! In his dance with truth, Mr. Keating takes care to omit this little fact.


Here is Mr. Keatings own words. This joker should read them and do an honest evaluatoin of if they are true.

http://www.catholic.com/library/catholic_inventions.asp

"Still More Evidence. This teaching was confirmed at the Council of Trent (Session IV, April 8, 1546 Decree Concerning the Canonical Scriptures). The Council of Trent went further, stating that anyone who dared study Scriptures on their own must "be punished with the penalties by law established." With incredible audacity, the Council of Trent went so far as to forbid even the printing of and sale of the Bible! Anyone daring to violate this decree was anathematized, or cursed and damned to Hell for it. (Dogmatic Cannons and Decrees of the Council of Trent..., pages 11-13; Copyright 1977, 1912, with Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat. Tan Books and Publishers, P.O. Box 424, Rockford, IL 61105)"

Ah the internet is a wonderful thing. Today we can with the click of a mouse go directly to the text so we don't have to believe people like your author on grave matters such as this. More distortions. Here is the actual canon that is referred to.

http://www.pax-et-veritas.org/Councils/trent/04.htm

Now you may not like what it says but it does not forbid bible reading. It only admonishes anyone who would interprut scripture contrary to what the Church teaches and had taught prior to trent for 1800 years. There is no prohibition against Bible reading in the CofT. Read for yourself.
It forbids the reading of scriptures that are corrupt and have not been scrutinized by the Church which has great reverence and concern for accurate scripture. Once again I ask, how would you feel about someone reading out of a copy of the JW's New World Translation of the Bible? We can certainly do a detailed study of the decree of that council that is in question if you like but your author has clearly taken it out of context to the point of being a liar.

gotta go. I don't have the Ligouri quote in hand so I will try to look it up later if I have time. Likely it is out of context, but if not it was just one mans opinion, perhaps in the midst of an incredible amount of heresy. I also know that the idea that Bible reading was not encouraged until Vatican II is riducoulous. First of all there is an encyclical written I believe by Pope Leo XIII in the 1800 (Trent Timeframe, how interesting) on Bible reading that encourages priests in particular but lay people also to read scripture. I will look it up. There are also other statements by Popes through the ages in this regard. Also, if before V II Bible reading was discouraged I would find it odd that older copies of the Jerusalem Bible that I have seen (i.e. 1940 editions) actually give indulgences (I know that is a bad word to you guys) for 15 minutes of scripture reading daily. So the claims made in Mr. Australian Baptists posts are not to be trusted.

Blessings

 

Here is a bit more on Bible reading in the Catholic Church. I found the encyclical. It is available at:

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13provi.htm

and is called PROVIDENTISSIMUS DEUS. This encyclical was written not long after the Council of Trent which some have alleged "continued" an alleged prohibition against Bible reading. I think it can easily be well shown that this prohibition was against reading Bibles translated by people who distorted the words of scripture according to their false teachings, as the femnists in the Church today are coming out with gender neutral Bibles. Here is a quote from that Encyclical that encourages scripture reading, and is not limited to just the priests but encourages lay people and those of religious orders as well to read scripture. I recommend that you read the whole encyclical linked above because it clearly shows that the Church holds scripture reading in high regard.

"2. Now We, who by the help of God, and not without fruit, have by frequent Letters and exhortation endeavored to promote other branches of study which seemed capable of advancing the glory of God and contributing to the salvation of souls, have for a long time cherished the desire to give an impulse to the noble science of Holy Scripture, and to impart to Scripture study a direction suitable to the needs of the present day. The solicitude of the Apostolic office naturally urges, and even compels us, not only to desire that this grand source of Catholic revelation should be made safely and abundantly accessible to the flock of Jesus Christ, but also not to suffer any attempt to defile or corrupt it, either on the part of those who impiously and openly assail the Scriptures, or of those who are led astray into fallacious and imprudent novelties. We are not ignorant, indeed, Venerable Brethren, that there are not a few Catholics, men of talent and learning, who do devote themselves with ardor to the defense of the sacred writings and to making them better known and understood. But whilst giving to these the commendation they deserve, We cannot but earnestly exhort others also, from whose skill and piety and learning we have a right to expect good results, to give themselves to the same most praiseworthy work. It is Our wish and fervent desire to see an increase in the number of the approved and persevering laborers in the cause of Holy Scripture; and more especially that those whom Divine Grace has called to Holy Orders, should, day-by-day, as their state demands, display greater diligence and industry in reading, meditating, and explaining it. "

One more point. The Church has always read scriptures in Mass. This would seem to have been the thing to do in a day and age when Bibles were not readily available, due to cost and difficulty in making copies, and an uneducated population that could not read them even if they had one in their back pockets. The Church has also not shyed away from the so-called smoking gun verses. They have a methodical approach to choosing scriptures for reading in Mass that ensures coverage of the whole Bible, including these verses hat non-catholics think are so damning to Catholicism. In truth, they are not.

Other quotes from Popes on Bible reading:

Pope St. Gregory I (died 604 AD)
"The Emperor of heaven, the Lord of men and of angels, has sent you His epistles for your life’s advantage—and yet you neglect to read them eagerly. Study them, I beg you, and meditate daily on the words of your Creator. Learn the heart of God in the words of God, that you may sigh more eagerly for things eternal, that your soul may be kindled with greater longings for heavenly joys." Letters, 5, 46. (EnchBibl 31)

Pope St. Pius X (1903-1914 AD)

"Nothing would please us more than to see our beloved children form the habit of reading the Gospels - not merely from time to time, but every day."


Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922 AD) He repeated St. Jerome's statement:

Ignorance of Scriptures is ignorance of Christ."

He expressed his desire that, "... all the children of the Church, especially clerics, to reverence the Holy Scriptures, to read it piously and meditate on it constantly." He reminded them that, "...in these pages is to be sought that food, by which the spiritual life is nourished unto perfection..."

Pope Pius XII In 1943 he wrote, "Divino Afflante Spiritu" in which we read:

"Our predecessors, when the opportunity occurred, recommended the study or preaching or in fine the pious reading and meditation of the sacred Scriptures.

...This author of salvation, Christ, will men more fully know, more ardently love and more faithfully imitate in proportion as they are more assiduously urged to know and meditate the Sacred Letters, especially the New Testament..."

He also granted indulgences (a blessing of God's grace) to those who read Scripture. (1 Cor. 4:1.)

Oh my, all those are before Vatican II.

 

It's alright, I am looney!

I read that post and it struck me as funny. The one guy said no one could read and the other guy said they would steal them, and a (rather strange) mental picture hit me.

It was meant entirely to be funny.

Nothing else.

Someone took me seriously though

I was kidding.

I KNOW why they would steal them.

 

AngelMum,

Regardless of whether you were joking or not, many on this board of a non-catholic persuasion would have taken you seriously. I thank you for providing me the chance to explain this error that has been perpetuated in Protestantism and has been spoken as truth in so called scholarly books but alleged experts on Catholicism. Further, noone said that everyone couldn't read but the percentages that could were very low.

Blessings.

 

Hi there, As I noted, I just found it and put it up for comment. If you have had a problem with any other of my posts, please let me know.

I have now done a bit a research on the net.

Another web site both quotes the Toulouse decrees, and gives evidence that they did exist.

The Council of Toulouse, which met in November of 1229, about the time of the crusade against the Albigensians, set up a special ecclesiastical tribunal, or court, known as the Inquisition (Lat. inquisitio, an inquiry), to search out and try heretics. Twenty of the forty-five articles decreed by the Council dealt with heresy. It ruled in part:

Canon 2 - "The lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out."

Canon 14 - "We prohibit the permission of the books of the Old and New Testament to laymen, except perhaps they might desire to have the Psalter, or some Breviary for the divine service, or the Hours of the blessed Virgin Mary, for devotion; expressly forbidding their having the other parts of the Bible translated into the vulgar tongue" (Pierre Allix, Ecclesiastical History of Ancient Churches of the Albigenses, published in Oxford at the Clarendon Press in 1821, reprinted in USA in 1989 by Church History Research & Archives, P.O. Box 38, Dayton Ohio, 45449, p. 213).

Council Tolosanum, Pope Gregory IX, Anno. chr. 1229. Canons 2 and 14.

Additonal Sources:

The History of Protestantism, by J. A. Wiley, chapter 10 cites:

Concilium Tolosanum, cap. 1, p. 428. Sismondi, 220.
Labbe, Concil. Tolosan., tom. 11, p. 427. Fleury, Hist. Eccles., lib. 79, n. 58.

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Some Catholics may doubt that there even was a Church Council in Toulouse France in 1229. The following quotes are offered as corroborating evidence:

After the death of Innocent III, the Synod of Toulouse directed in 1229 its fourteenth canon against the misuse of Sacred Scripture on the part of the Cathari: "prohibemus, ne libros Veteris et Novi Testamenti laicis permittatur habere" (Hefele, "Concilgesch", Freiburg, 1863, V, 875).

Source, The 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia article on Scripture.


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In France Louis VIII decreed in 1226 that persons excommunicated by the diocesan bishop, or his delegate, should receive "meet punishment" (debita animadversio). In 1249 Louis IX ordered barons to deal with heretics according to the dictates of duty (de ipsis faciant quod debebant). A decree of the Council of Toulouse (1229) makes it appear probable that in France death at the stake was already comprehended as in keeping with the aforesaid debita animadversio.

Source, The 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia article on the Inquisition.


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... the Council of Toulouse (1229) entrusted the Inquisition, which soon passed into the hands of the Dominicans (1233), with the repression of Albigensianism. The heresy disappeared about the end of the fourteenth century.

Source, The 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia article on the Albigenses.


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1229 - The Inquisition of Toulouse imposed by Albigensian Crusaders forbids laymen to read the Bible.

Source: The People's Chronology, Revised and updated, by James Trager, Copyright 1992, 1994, published by Henry Holt and Company, ISBN 0-8050-3134-0, New York, page 108.


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In 1229, when the Council of Toulouse assembled to survey and regulate the results of the Albigensian Crusade, its canons reflected the severity of ecclesiastical discipline in an area in which the inability to eradicate heresy had led to profound secular and ecclesiastical consequences. The first canon of the Council insists upon the appointment of the traditional testes synodales, but these now have new powers of actively searching out the hiding places of heretics; condemned heretics who repent must be moved to orthodox places to live, and they must wear conspicuously colored crosses on their garments to publicly indicate their penitential status; certain professions were closed to those even suspected of heresy.

Source: Inquisition, by Edward Peters, published by University of California Press, Berkley and Los Angeles, Copyright 1988 by the Free Press, a division of Macmillan, Inc., ISBN 0-520-06630-8, page 51.


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In the same year [1229], the Council of Toulouse set up a special court of permanent judges to search out and try heretics. But although twenty of the forty-five articles of that Council dealt with the problem of heresy, it did not yet create a new and specific institution for this work. The local bishop remained the final judge, and had the power to commute sentences. 4

4. Lea, Henry Charles, The History of the Inquisition of the Middle Ages, New York: Macmillan, 1908, vol. I, p. 310.

(Lea cites the 1229 Council of Toulouse as the foundation for the Inquisition, on page 359 of vol. I., as does Guiraud in The Medieval Inquisition, London: Burns Oates and Washbourne, 1929, on page 59.)

Source: The Inquisition, Hammer of Heresy, By Edward Burman, Copyright 1984, Published by Dorset Press, a division of Marboro Books Corp., by arrangement with Harper Collins Publishers, UK., ISBN 0-88029-909-6, pages 31, 32.


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The clauses of the Peace of Paris and the decrees of a council held at Toulouse in November 1229 demonstrated that twenty years of crusading had not been very effective, since heresy was as much a concern as ever. The fact was that crusading, particularly when as episodic as this type was, could not eradicate deep-rooted heresy. It required the establishment of the inquisition in Toulouse in 1233 and the persistant pressure that such an instrument could bring to bear for headway to be made ...

Source: The Crusades, A Short History, by Jonathan Riley-Smith, Copyright 1987, published by Yale University Press, New Haven and London, ISBN 0-300-04700-2, pages 138, 139.

The question for you is, even if you accept the Catholic position on this, that the Albigensians were bad guys with a bad translation, the Catholic response is unbelievable!!

Someone is mis-translating and mis-using the Scriptures, so what do we do?
1 Ban all Bibles in the local language.
2 Call in mercenaries to kill any who might belong to the bad group.

You cannot defend this!

The sword of the Spirit is the Word of God. You would need to step up distribution of correct scriptures, send in qualified teachers, and pray for wisdom to show the merits of your case. Instead, you ban the sword from the people just as they need it most!

Given that the church battles not against foes of flesh, but spiritual forces, you then send in foreign troops to commit mass murder in Christ's name??!! The troops who murdered in the church's name were promised salvation, and that if they died, their wives would never marry again(!) When the crusaders were about to capture Beziers, they asked the Abbe of Cisteaux, Arnold, how to deal with the large Catholic population also in the city. "Kill them all, the Lord knoweth them that are his" was the reply.

This is not a pleasant or defendable history.

Take care, Colin

 

Well,
As I posted in the other thread, I am not anticatholic, and do not support literature that is. I was seriously trying to be funny, and not at anyone's expense, so if I offended, I apologize.

God Bless