John's Gospel & Epistles

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Is it that God hasn't revealed the above to me, or that it makes very little cohesive sense?

Must be because God hasn't revealed it to you. I will simplify it for you.

Marian dogmas are important because of Mary's role as a type of the Church and to help us reflect on things to come.

All Marian doctrine applies to the Church and our understanding of it in some fashion.

The assumptin in particular could be reflected upon with regard to the Church in the last days when we will be "caught up" as Paul says in Thes 4:17 to meet him.

We will be ressurected and then our assuption as the Church will take place as we are raised high to the Glory of God by his power, in to our heavenly resting place.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

The Bible gives me more than a lifetime of things to reflect upon, no need to make stuff up.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Well I'm a little upset that God would reveal this to Ron, and not me.

God didn't reveal it to you. You accept it from tradition.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
The Bible gives me more than a lifetime of things to reflect upon, no need to make stuff up.

Curtis, I am still waiting on the Book and verse to backup your basic premise that everything must be written down in Scripture.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I posted it. Gal 1:9 is a good one.

Now you answer, why is it not preserved. We have established that John wrote his letters way after any ascension or assumption happened. So why did he leave it out ?

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Is it that God hasn't revealed the above to me, or that it makes very little cohesive sense?

Must be because God hasn't revealed it to you. I will simplify it for you.

Marian dogmas are important because of Mary's role as a type of the Church and to help us reflect on things to come. </font>[/QUOTE]I really needed that help why?

All Marian doctrine applies to the Church and our understanding of it in some fashion.

No, all Marian doctrine applies to trying to explain the nature of Christ's divinity and going too far. Period. The only relation I cna draw is, as stated earlier, the worship of the bronze snake.

The assumptin in particular could be reflected upon with regard to the Church in the last days when we will be "caught up" as Paul says in Thes 4:17 to meet him.

We will be ressurected and then our assuption as the Church will take place as we are raised high to the Glory of God by his power, in to our heavenly resting place.

Again, why do I need to have some late innovation on the nature of Mary to help me comprehend eschatological matters?

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
I posted it. Gal 1:9 is a good one.

Now you answer, why is it not preserved. We have established that John wrote his letters way after any ascension or assumption happened. So why did he leave it out ?

Gal 1:9 doesn't even remotely adress whether it has to written down.

Why don't you try again?

And it has been preserved in the Traditions of the Church.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

That verse does fine for me.

Hope someday that your not too sorry you didn't trust God more than you do, you seem to be telling me he can't be counted on to give us the whole story.

Now who's gullible ?

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
That verse does fine for me.

Hope someday that your not too sorry you didn't trust God more than you do, you seem to be telling me he can't be counted on to give us the whole story.

Now who's gullible ?

This remark kind of strikes me like the other one that gets thrown around on this fourm.. "You are calling God a liar."

We interpret Scripture differently. I accept from Scripture that Christ gave us the Church to lead us in matters of faith... both oral and written. It was the Church that gave us the New Testament after all.

You disagree with my interpretation so you feel free to judge my heart and declare that I do not trust God.

I'm glad that that verse works for you. It just doesn't speak to the issue, that's all.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Is it that God hasn't revealed the above to me, or that it makes very little cohesive sense?

Must be because God hasn't revealed it to you. I will simplify it for you.

Marian dogmas are important because of Mary's role as a type of the Church and to help us reflect on things to come. </font>[/QUOTE]I really needed that help why?

All Marian doctrine applies to the Church and our understanding of it in some fashion.

No, all Marian doctrine applies to trying to explain the nature of Christ's divinity and going too far. Period. The only relation I cna draw is, as stated earlier, the worship of the bronze snake.

The assumptin in particular could be reflected upon with regard to the Church in the last days when we will be "caught up" as Paul says in Thes 4:17 to meet him.

We will be ressurected and then our assuption as the Church will take place as we are raised high to the Glory of God by his power, in to our heavenly resting place.

Again, why do I need to have some late innovation on the nature of Mary to help me comprehend eschatological matters? </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
That verse does fine for me.

Hope someday that your not too sorry you didn't trust God more than you do, you seem to be telling me he can't be counted on to give us the whole story.

Now who's gullible ?

I think talking to a brick would be more productive. Blessings Curtis. I hope you are invincibly ignorant and not just, well, I guess someone might pipe in about ad hom...something so I will leave it at that. The infallible interpruter, Curtis has spoken, nothing more can be said. By the way, with regard to trusting God, why don't you trust that what was given orally in 2 Thes 2:15 was not carried on by the Holy Spirit. Why do you think the gates of hell prevailed and things had to be started up by the Baptists, or are you one of those Trail of Blood believers (now that is a fantasy that is not in the Bible).

Blessings dude.

 

[thessalonian]

"I think she's dead because her heart ceased beating at some point. That usually, if it lasts long enough, qualifies a person as "dead." "

Trajic, have you ever heard of a soul? What does eternal life mean? Isn't that what we are given by Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

So does this life that we were given, spiritual life, end at death? You must be an SDA or something. Maybe a JW? I know baptists don't believe in soul sleep.

Now what you have to prove to me from the Bible, not some na-na boo boo statement "THEY CAN'T HEAR YOU" that those in heaven cannot hear us or know what is going on on earth. Good luck.

Blessing Trajic

 

[DanPC]

"Now you answer, why is it not preserved. We have established that John wrote his letters way after any ascension or assumption happened. So why did he leave it out ?"

Brother Curtis, wouldn't it have been nice if the Trinity had been explained as well as the Nicean councils did with the assistance of the Holy Spirit? Catholics would agree with you that the Trinity is more important than Marian doctrines and yet the Bible is not all that clear on it. (If it was we wouldn't have had all of those Trinitarian heresies the first 500 years or so--some still hanging around these days.) I think Revelation is about as clear as you can get on this issue.

 

[Born Again Catholic]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
Thanx, Grant.

Now how about the epistles, Why is Mary absent from those, and why is she not ever mentioned in his Revelation ?

The point of this whole thread seems to be that you don't feel the NT writers especially John didn't honor Mary enough or talk about her enough to warrant all this Catholic attention.

Well except for Jesus and Peter, Mary is mentioned by name more than any other individual in the NT.

Look at all the key places she is in the Gospels. just to name a few, the annunciation, Jesus' being presented, Jesus's first public miracle (wedding), on the road to Calvery, at the foot of the cross, in the upper room.

Then John shows her in crowned in heaven as I pointed out in my discussion of Rev 12, a pretty big honor. Furthermore Jesus gave Mary to John as a mother at the foot of the Cross. Now that John has this vision of heaven he tells us she is the mother of all those who keep the commandements, another huge honor.

Even with all this you question why John didn't give her more honor and why he didn't tell us exactly how she got to heaven, well it certainly wasn't under her own power so that would only leave God. (assumption not assencion)

I bring up many of the potential fallacies of your argument why Mary isn't the women of Rev 12 your only answer is the women is Isreal but you can't prove it.

Furthermore scripture commands us to follow Tradition yet your position seems to be who cares, I don't believe it applies to me anymore. So you got to play by my rules.

Based on thessolonians post it also looks like you wrote

"I do believe that John would have written about the ascension, had it happened. I believe Paul's epistles would have told us to honor Mary, if that were God's will. "

Yet in Luke we are told that all generations will call her blessed, another pretty big honor, but apparently she is not honored or mentioned enough in scripture to satisfy you.

By the way can you honestly tell me how you personally are fulfilling this prophesy, that all generations will call her blessed.

God Bless

 

[Bro. Curtis]

You know, the brick comment works both ways. Somebody, hundreds of years after John's Revelation was written, says Mary Bodily rose from earth. And you believe it, refusing to see if it stands up to scripture. That seems pretty thick-headed to me.

 

[thessalonian]

"

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
You know, the brick comment works both ways. Somebody, hundreds of years after John's Revelation was written, says Mary Bodily rose from earth. And you believe it, refusing to see if it stands up to scripture. That seems pretty thick-headed to me.

"


It is only in your limited human mind filled with the distortions of your Baptist religion that it does not stand up. That is what you cannot understand. You have a group of TRADITIONS that go with what you read in scripture that shapes what you believe it says. This is a fact you will not ever acknowledge. What you read is what the Bible actually says. And yet when a Lutheran reads the Bible they believe that what they read is actually what the Bible says but it is different from what is in your head. And then we have the United Church of Christ Protestants. We won't even go there. But Curtis's head full of traditoins is the right one because that is of course what the Bible says. And somehow every Protestant has to read for themselves to determine what the Bible says and if it differs from what another protestant thinks the Bible says on an issue such as the Rapture, "oh well that is not critical to salvation anyway.". It gets commical. Just two days ago someone wrote on this board, well we agree on everything that is important and if we disagree we sit down over a cup of coffee and hammer it out. (I'm adliving a bit). Ridiculous. That is why there are new Churches sprining up all over because of the harmony and unity in Protestantism. And yes baptists are Protestant.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
You know, the brick comment works both ways. Somebody, hundreds of years after John's Revelation was written, says Mary Bodily rose from earth. And you believe it, refusing to see if it stands up to scripture. That seems pretty thick-headed to me.

Curtis,

It "does" stand up to Scripture. It is not "in" Scripture, especially not explicitly. But that is not the same thing as "standing up to" Scripture. Elijah was assumed. Likely, Enoch and Moses also, based on a few Bible passages. This doesn't shake your faith. But that God might have taken Mary, the woman He chose to carry the ONLY SON OF GOD, the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD, JESUS CHRIST...to think that SHE might be taken up in to Heaven...why...that just doesn't jive with Scripture!

When you are ready to make a case, let me know, because what you just posted is NOT a case.

God bless,

Grant

 

[Bro. Curtis]

You are wrong again, since we model our faith after the Pauline epistles, and preach only from the bible.

You call us whatever you want to, it doesn't change the fact that John left out Mary's ascension. And now we know why. (It's a fable)

You seem angry, also. Remember, we challenge non-biblical stuff here, so don't come here if it's going to ruin yer day.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I have to apologize in advance, i won't be here a lot today. (Stop cheering!)

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by thessalonian:

It is only in your limited human mind filled with the distortions of your Baptist religion that it does not stand up. That is what you cannot understand. You have a group of TRADITIONS that go with what you read in scripture that shapes what you believe it says. This is a fact you will not ever acknowledge. What you read is what the Bible actually says. And yet when a Lutheran reads the Bible they believe that what they read is actually what the Bible says but it is different from what is in your head. And then we have the United Church of Christ Protestants. We won't even go there. But Curtis's head full of traditoins is the right one because that is of course what the Bible says. And somehow every Protestant has to read for themselves to determine what the Bible says and if it differs from what another protestant thinks the Bible says on an issue such as the Rapture, "oh well that is not critical to salvation anyway.". It gets commical. Just two days ago someone wrote on this board, well we agree on everything that is important and if we disagree we sit down over a cup of coffee and hammer it out. (I'm adliving a bit). Ridiculous. That is why there are new Churches sprining up all over because of the harmony and unity in Protestantism. And yes baptists are Protestant.

Angry, non-answering post. Can't change the fact, so make the Baptist look uneducated.