Jonathan Edwards on the Destruction of the Wicked

It would seem resonable to deal with Scripture. . .

Revelation 6:10 (KJV) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Revelation 18:20 (KJV) Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Psalms 58:10 (KJV) The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

2 Thessalonians 1:6 (KJV) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Isaiah 61:2 (KJV) To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

 

Bob,

But WHY are they rejoicing Bob? Are you saying there won't be rejoicing in heaven? Is that your concern? Oh no can't have that in Bob's heaven. If your so concerned about them Bob, why don't you just go with them? It seems like you are more interested in them than God.

 

Psalms 94:3 (KJV) LORD, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph?
4 How long shall they utter and speak hard things? and all the workers of iniquity boast themselves?

By grace,
Bob Krajcik

 

Luke 18:7 (KJV) And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

By grace,
Bob Krajcik

 

You are messed up about this, and you are messed up thinking that Christ has eternal love for and has shed His blood for those that shall receive everlasting burning. You continue to misrepresent what you have been shown from the Scriptures, and instead you continue to vilify the imagination of your own mind. So many have made things clear, but you have misrepresented what they have said. It would be one thing were you to not agree with what has been said, but you misrepresent what has been said.

By grace,
Bob Krajcik

 

The Scriptures say, God endured with much longsuffering the vessals of wrath. Never is it shown God was wondering if they really were fitted to destruction.

Romans 9:22 (KJV) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

By grace,
Bob Krajcik

 

He doesn't want to get it BK.

 

Well you are correct there!!

MUCH longsuffering!!

Much patience - mercy for "GOD SO LOVED the World" and God is "NOT WILLING FOR ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance"...

No doubt about it - MUCH longsuffering!!

For it is all dependant on "GOD who HAS mercy"!!

So no surprise that we SEE this unchanging God of LOVE "weeping over the lost"!!!


When the “unchanging God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

Lament over Jerusalem

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

In Christ,

Bob

 

ALL are totally depraved (as it turns out) so ALL are perfectly fitted to destruction!!

There is NONE righteous NO NOT ONE!!

The sinful nature and the sins of man make ALL -- those bound for hell!

But God "SO LOVED the WORLD that HE GAVE" and His Son was sent to be "The Savior of the WORLD" 1John 4:10

Still - God has perfect foreknowledge and KNOWS who will hear and open the door and who will simply let Christ keep standing there OUTSIDE The door and knocking.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,
You need to educate yourself on Jewish culture.
You do not understand John 3 correctly.

It was a Jew talking to a Jew with reference to a Jewish historical context "As Moses lifted up the serpant...)

Take a hermeneutics class PLEASE!

The world RARELY means universally. Actually on average (especially in Jewish language) kosmos is meant universally only once every eight times used in the Bible.

Jesus meant that God doesn't just love the Jews to give them a salvation (which is a great story of elect being saved in the bronze serpent story... not everybody had the chance to LOOK UPON IT...) but God so loved (not only the Jews) but the WORLD... He was telling Nicodemus that God not only loved the Jews but the Gentiles also. And like the bronze serpent, God gave His own son, TO THOSE BELIEVING.

 

The "World" rarely means "WORLD" - says the Calvinist. So it is "God so loved the WORLD..but not REALLY" in Calvinism!!

Take a look at John 1 as it SETS UP the context for John 3.

In John 1 it is the WORLD that Christ MADE that He comes into!! It is THAT WORLD into which HE IS THE LIGHT!!

AND "Coming INTO THE WORLD HE is the LIGHT that enlightens EVERY one of MANKIND".

"How much WORLD did He really MAKE"??

Now how will it be "possible" for Calvinism to bend and twist this context of WORLD established BY The AUTHOR in the SAME BOOK - SAME Context??

Fear not Calvinists - they will find "away" by hook or by crook!!

We know they are up to the task -- we expect a confused and disconnected reading from them in John 3 totally out of line with John 1.

And we get it!!

Of course EVEN Calvinists have to admit that BOTH the saved AND The lost are mentioned in John 3 so "WORLD" is inclusive OF BOTH!!

So when Calvinists want to argue that WORLD does NOT include those who are NOT finally saved - how will they cut and snip that very topic OUT of John 3??

Answer - they merely hope to obfuscate and misdirect on that point. Meanwhile Christ has come INTO THE WORLD as the light going into and enlightening EVERY one of mankine. He STANDS at the door and knocks gentlemen!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,
chpt 1 does not set up a context two chapters later. Also, you avoid the immediate context of WHO Jesus is, WHO He was talking too and WHAT was being talked about. Proper hermeneutics does not allow a universal EVERYWHERE because it is used as a universal in another case. Going by your rules actually, the universal is used only 1 out of every 8 times by John... so by your definition it should NEVER be taken as a universal since grammatically it rarely is by John, i.e.
John 12:19 19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the WORLD has gone after him.

Was John "setting up" chapter 12 also? The pharisees seen people from Mexico in Jerusalem following Jesus? .... Don't think so....

Every prominent Greek exegete explains the WORLD describing what proceeds it... those believing... sorry, "whosoever" is not in the text, it is particular and that is what Jesus was explaining.

The Holy Spirit is PARTICULAR and goes where IT wishes... Man does not control it...
John 3:8 8 The wind blows WHERE IT WISHES, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

John 3:14 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness...

Why did a JEW talking to a JEW use this analogy? and if Jesus knowing He was talking to a JEW use "the world" instead of "every person whom He created"?

You didn't read my last post did you? You can't impose as 20th century GENTILE understanding upon the text. Proper hermeneutics rules that text has to impose ON YOU what the surroundings and cultural understandings of the times implies.

When a Jew talks to a Jew in the 1st century (and still to this day actually) The world meant the GENTILES. In proper context Jesus uses the serpent as this implied to the Jews also. Jesus was telling Nicodemus that He didn't just come to the Jews (as with the bronze serpent) but He loved the Gentiles also. And PARTICULARLY and ONLY THOSE BELIEVING.

 

#1. There are no chapters in John's Gospel. They were inserted later.

#2. There is no "rule" that context of the opening chapter can be ignored after you leave that chapter.

#3. The same author, same term, same book (and in the case of chapter 1 SAME CHAPTER) is paramount in seeing context.

Global context: "The LIGHT OF MEN" unqualified (as in – “mankind”).

"Light shines in DARKNESS" - the entire world is said to be in darkness not just the jews.
"so that ALL might believe through Him" Unqualified - the message of John in the Gospels has gone to all the WORLD.

In vs 9 the “light comes into the World” – the same “World” that is MADE by Christ in vs 10.

In vs 12 we see that the action of those who received Christ is what determines the result and in the Greek the reception is in the "active voice". It does not state that some other action was taken forcing them to be children of God and then merely note that they also "received Christ". (Analytical Greek NT - "indicative mood" and "active voice" used for receive in John 1:12)

Notice "children of A God" just does not work here.
Notice "Nor of the will of man, but of A God" is not workable. No justification for such abuse of the text.

Born of blood - refering to natural birth.

God's part: Sending His Son as light into the world - the same world that was made through him - (global unqualified non-restrictive context.)
not only into the world but also to his own (those he chose for himself) -

Man's part - history (those chosen as "his own" failed - they did not receive HIM).
- standing offer - BUT To as many as RECEIVED Him (by contrast to HIS CHOSEN "OWN" - who did NOT receive Him)

God's part - to them he gave the right to become children of God.

God's part - to cause those that receive him to be born again.

Calvinism "hope" of course is to ignore the sequence - to lift God's part out - and delete man's part so that NO sequence appears - JUST God causing man to be born again - arbitrarily selecting prior to any reference of man receiving anything. Calvinism's attempt to ignore the complete text fails.

The Arminian principle of
-God first acting to supernaturally bring salvation to all,
- then calling for man to respond and receive,
- then subsequently
providing that those who act and receive - shall then have the right to become children of god following their act of receiving.

And though He comes as light into the World (the same WORLD that He made) and "Enlightens every man" - yet it is not to force the will - but to compell "every one of mankind" to action, as it convicts and draws mankind to choose light - to choose to OPEN the door.

Yet

In Christ,

Bob

 

What really annoys me is that these Calvinists on here seem to "jolly" in the fate of the lost. Unbelievable!

 

All of us?

 

No. But I am using the "conservatives" tactics when they describe "liberals".

I apologize...if you aren't like them. But I think if you don't feel the same as them...they would "debate" you until you did.

 

What is really unbelievable to me is that they can sing "God so hates hates hates" even when contemplating the suffering and torment of their own precious loved ones in the flames!!

By contrast - God shows HIMSELF to WEEP over the lost with "ALL His Compassions STIRRED UP" over the loss!!

What a wonderful God!

What awful Calvinism!

In Christ,

Bob

 

So the pharisee's saw the WHOLE WORLD, every person alive was in Jerusalem following Jesus!..

I've been to Jerusalem many times, and believe me, it is not that big!

Your understanding of context if contrived at best. Again, I urge you to take some serious hermaneutics classes.

So answer me Bob, was the whole population of the world in Jersalem following Jesus?

 

Right on Bob.

rc...just because you are using the term world properly in the context of that passage..does not mean you are with passages such as John 3:16.

Hey if world doesn't mean world...does "elect" mean "elect"? At least the way "the elect" think it does?

 

No, I let the DIRECT context of the scripture rule what imposing meaning. That's the whole point. Hermeneutics class would benefit you guys greatly.

If I from Minnesota where talking to someone in Atlanta, and said something of the effect .. You "southerners", He would take that as me meaning "those of the mason dixon line". Not ALL North Americans (which would include myself) that would be silly. But if King James where talking to me and He said "You southerners" are crazy.... I would take that as North Americans and not just those south of the line..... Context of WHO is talking and to WHOM is vital. ESPECIALLY in the JEWISH contexts.

KJ brought up a good point. You have to judge each word in it's context. I can judge each time Elect is used according to it's context. But if there is a systematically, overarching prescriptive for that term, it is wise to weight it accordingly. I.E. God said He relented... but then just a few verses later is says that He doesn't relent. The overarching prescriptive is the RULE God does NOT relent... this will rule or guide my understanding for a proper rendering of the verse that said that He relented in a certain circumstance. ....

The world though if at best is RARELY used as a universal.... Think about it. If you honestly recorded yourself everytime you used a universal word and then looked at what you meant by it, you would find that you RARELY actually meant it grammatically as a universal. We all do that all of the time... (No we don't) Ha !! See what I mean? We ALL don't do that ALL of the time ...

The world in John 3 is surrounded by Jewish people in a Jewish context... A PERFECT example IS John 12. Why did JEWS say "The whole World followed Him... because that is what Jews say when they mean other other than the nation of Israel.

Same with Jesus (Jew) talking to Nakdimon. Jesus brings up the saving of Israel by the bronze serpent (only for the elect of Israel by the way) and after giving Nakdimon a lesson in JEWISH history with a JEWISH mindset to a JEWISH rabbi from a JEW it is said "That God not only loved Israel (to do what He did in the wilderness) but for God so loved the WORLD....He didn't come just for the Jews Nakdimon ... get your mind out of your racist mentality... but the WORLD...and THEN He defines the world by saying "THOSE BELIEVING ONES" will not perish but have everlasting life. He gave His life to the BELIEVING ONES... Thus in the Greek it is perfectly allowable to say He loved the believing ones so much that He gave His son for them, that they will not perish but have everlasting life.