Jonathan Edwards on the Destruction of the Wicked

Hey you made some good points. Maybe I can use a hermeneutics class...but taking Scripture at face value I would believe some places where "world" is mentioned does mean the whole world. I can't see how God would say He loved the world and not meant "the world". I would think He would say "the elect". It would save a whole lot of controversy. If that verse were changed to "the elect" there would be no controversy and I'd have no choice but to agree with Calvinism.

For the record though, when I would say something about southerners...I'd be talking about those in the southern states as well...since half the United States is north of me.

 

Speaking of Ontario,
I was on the Canadian side of the Niagara Falls last week, took vaca with the wife.... talk about AWESOME. You really get a feel for the majesty and power of God in those falls when your at the bottom of them in that little boat... amazing.

 

That's a fact.

I also went to some awesome waterfall in Oregon, near the Washington border. Anyone here from Oregon?

 

Hermeneutics GREATLY changed how I CAME to understand scripture. And taught me how EASILY I misinterpreted many verses because of language of the Greek, culture, time difference, philosophy and the science of knowing when you are reading INTO a text instead of taking it from the text. I really changed my MIND in how much (really how LITTLE) I knew scripture and that class REALLY forced me to go to school for a degree in theology. I can't underestimate the importance of it. I encourage everybody to take theology, hermeneutics classes and maybe even most importantly the HISTORY of theology of the church (righteousness does not live in a land of forgetfullness) You learn where these debates spawned from and other silly things came from like Holy laughter, barking , and stuff like that. Plus it is really fun.

 

Thanks rc...I will try to take a class when I get a chance. I have a book on hermeneutics but don't know where to start. The Bible is a big book after all...no idea where to begin.

I know about the holy laughter and barking things too. I think they are wicked.

I do have a question with all due respect though. How come many can take hermeneutics and STILL be Arminian? Maybe Scripture is part Arminian and part Calvinist. There would be no other explanation I think. I am starting to believe it is too complicated of an issue for us to comprehend.

 

So true. In fact if we changed it to "God so loved the FEW of Matt 7 that HE GAVE..." what a PERFECT Calvinist text it would make INSTEAD of that mean ol' "God so LOVED THE WORLD" from a God who is "NOT WILLING THAT ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" for He "SENT HIS SON to be the SAVIOR of the WORLD"..

We either need some whiteout and a good pencil or .... or "something"!!

But with a little editing, redefining here, ignoring there... maybe just maybe we can get the text to the point of CALVINISM!!

A little effort on behalf of our brethren on the other side of the isle is always a good gesture!

THEN all we need to do is to delete the texts about the God who CARES for the LOST and who WEEPS for the lost!! Imagine how that would STRENGTHEN the "Calvinist Future Scenario"!! It would make Johnathan Edward's point in triplicate!!

Lets find some scissors!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Indeed - IMAGINE going to John 1 with "WORLD does NOT mean WORLD"!!

How much of the "WORLD" did Chriat MAKE anyway??!!

 

So as John writes "GOD so LOVED the World" (he forgot to mention 'hates hates hates') it is the WORLD that John says Christ MADE!!

 

It IS a very Awesome and scary task that's for sure... BUT like electronics or engines... they seem daunting until you just take one lesson at a time and work through it... next thing you know your fixing computers and cars...

Yes, unfortunately this MAY NOT settle the issue of this debate BUT don't care about that. Don't go into it with that in mind especially. I would think it wise to go to a VERY conservative school or get a book from a VERY conservative scholar and work your way to more liberal views if you wish, but I've found most scholars that deal in hermeneutics are conservative anyhoo...

Another major part of studying this debate for sure is NOT church history books per se but history of THEOLOGY in the Church books...

Early Christian Doctrines by J.N.D. Kelly
Historical Theology by William Cunningham

Those are a little bit dry and academic.

One that is much more of an easier read and more fun is Learning Theology with the Church Fathers by Christopher A. Hall.

This one REALLY opened up some understandings for me since he explains WHAT was going on in the times when they were writing on these subjects. There are allot of misquotes from the church fathers I've found out because they were taken out of the historical context from which they were in.

bla bla bla... I said enough...but don't get dishartened...

 

In any case - I am simply pointing out that WORLD in John 1 is a problem for Calvinists EVEN in John 1 !!!

The fact that John establishes that context for his letter is just "another problem" for them.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ignoring proper exegesis is bliss huh Bob!

Look! The WHOLE WORLD is following Him! There's the Japanese, and the Russians, the Brazilians, the Indians, Mexicans.... Wow... how did they all fit in that little space?

 

Out of all nations and tongues there are disciples of the Christ! Seems like "whole world" means what it says!

 

I wouldn't know -- I have been leaving it to Calvinists to perfect eisegesis while I stick to solid exegesis.

In the case of the example above - Calvinists must "redefine WORLD" IN THE MIDDLE of chapter 1 of John EVEN though John shows that the WORLD is the ONE CREATED by Christ!!

I would hate to be a Calvinist and then have to "pay attention to details" in the book of John. No wonder they seem to enjoy eisegeting the text so much!

In Christ,

Bob

 

I saw this point about the PERSECUTION of the saints and the fact that they will rejoice to see THEIR TORMENTORS stopped and judged. ?For example Jewish saints seeing the judgment poured out on Hitler or Ceasar or Nero or ...

However Edwards - and many Calvinists here would apply that ALSO to THEIR OWN CHILDREN.

"Washing their feet in their child's blood"!!!???

Rejoicing in the TORMENT of their OWN CHILD???

The wrenching and bending of these texts to applyl to ones own precious daughter suffering the torments of flames - is something ONLY found in the Calvinist mind -- never scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Suffice it to say that Edwards is RIGHT when he claims the SAINTS will SEE the torment of the wicked in the text of Rev 14:10. And as Edwards points out this is ALL The wicked NOT just the ones that accept the Mark of the Beast!!

Calvinists ran from that idea when I first pointed it out from Rev 14:10 -- but now they seem to be rallying around the idea of joyfully watching their precious children suffer in the flames.

That takes "real dedication" to error over scripture - friends.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That takes "real dedication" to error over scripture - friends.


You should know something about THAT.