Judas and the Lord's Supper

Nice to meet you anyway dianetavegia.

johnp.

 

And you, also. I'm sure we'll agree on other things.

 

Perhaps it is that they can not accept his teachings. They can not submit to God's will. They know that Jesus is the Son of God, but they simply will no accept Jesus' lordship.

 

Hello Eladar.

The Devil submits to God. In Job God told Satan that he can do as he likes to Job's possessions but he must not touch Job. He then tells Satan to do as he likes to Job except kill him. Both occasions he did as he was told.

They are in a different position to us. They have access to the courts of Heaven and stand face to face with Him. I know we do as well as Christians but not in the same sense.
I believe there is a lot of cooperation between the fallen angels and God. 1 Kings 19 shows that God uses sin as a tool and as such the fallen angels are under His direct command and do His bidding.
So, with respect, they do submit to His Lordship and obey His commands and they also believe without doubt that God is God.

johnp.

 

Hello Johnp.,

It seems to me that we simply have a problem with defining the term lordship. I'm using it in the same way that God describes the choice in Ezekiel 18.


"Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

Israel had the choice to repend and accept God's lordship or continue in its error. Israel, like the demons reject God's lordship and continue in their error.

 

Eladar.

It's nice to meet you.
Forgive me but I was asking Wes; "And the difference between their believing and your believing is what exactly?" As a response to his statement, Even the demons believe in Jesus. And I don't want that to get lost. Wes! Please answer.

Ok. But I see His Lordship ever present and active. He is the Lord of the reprobate and saint. I do not see our willingness as a neccesary part of His Lordship over man. He is Lord.

I am sorry it has taken so long to reply. I have made several starts on it but I find what you say difficult to get a grip on.
"Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

I hope you don't mind if I make some assumptions. I do not see our willingness as a neccesary part of His Lordship over man. He is Lord. I am sure you agree with this because the Lord will visit punishment on those who fail to do as He says which can only mean that He considers Himself Lord.
The verse above, I shall read the chapter later on, leads me to think you believe in free will. Can you tell me how to do this, "...make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit!" Please?

I have been reading the story of Satan and his strolling about Heaven and having a chat with God. It's very interesting. I got the impression that Satan had his hands in his pockets and was whistling a little ditty when he arrived at the Lord.
He does not act like a person who fears God. I wonder if at this time he had not realised the cross.

JOB 1:12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
Obedience was not questioned. He did not lay a hand on Job until God told him he could. Israel continually disobeyed.
I know there is a bit of a slant on this. Satan was told to do something he wanted to do and Israel was told to do something they did not want to do.
How is Satan's belief in God different from yours? Since it is said that we must believe, and Satan does, why is He not saved?

You see Wes believes that all sin has been atoned for so I cannot understand what Satan needs to do to be saved. He believes in God more than I do.

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP;

I can answer this for you. It's called trust. Demons didn't trust in Christ they placed there trust in Satan.

Don't you trust in Him? if you do then this is your willingness.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Hello ILUVLIGHT haven't seen you around for awhile.

What is the trust involved in trusting? You surely don't mean that the spirits do not trust the word of Jesus do you? Why do they tremble so if they do not trust?
I do not see our willingness as a neccesary part of His Lordship over man. He is Lord.

I trust that He died for my sins what do you trust Him for?

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP;

Trusting God for our Salvation.

As I said before it's to late for Demons and fallen angels because they chose to place there trust in Satan. They have already been judged. Once it's to late it's over for you. There are no second chances.

I trust that He died for my sins as well but I also trust that he will save me because of His new covenant.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

You say your faith saves you?
But you don't believe that He died for your sins because you still say, " I also trust that he will save me because of His new covenant."
This is where you are in error. Either you believe He died for your sins or you go to Hell because you do not trust Him otherwise. You do not believe He died for your sins because you believe you can still go to Hell.
You trust in your own faith that is why you are not sure if you will be saved or not. You don't really trust yourself and you refuse to trust Jesus.

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP;

There you go JohnP you are assuming that you know my heart.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Why do you do that ILUVLIGHT?

I'm sorry but I thought you believed you can fall away. I did not realise you believed in absolute secruity.

Please let me know, can you fall away or not?

johnp.

 

Can you gain faith in something then lose faith in it?

If you answer no, then why is the divorce rate what it is?

If it is so easy to lose faith in a spouse, what makes you think it is not just as easy to lose faith in God?

Think it through Johnp!

 

Wes.

I don't know I have never believed in anything before.

Well I didn't answer no did I? I have been married four times. I can give an account of my divorce rate though. It's slowed down.HaHa!
When I went into those marriages I did not believe in the women. I knew if it didn't work then so what, there are plenty more fish in the sea. I failed to realise that love is not dependant on the other person it depended on me. Compatible is mistaken for love and when the compatible is over so is the marriage unless it is convenient.

I am saved.
The second Adam has said that He is insufficient without me His bride. This is marriage, that He loved me and gave Himself for me, this is the true love I failed to give my previous wives. His love for me is not dependant on me but on Him. It depends on His committment to me not mine to Him.
In this way I have committed myself to my wife and she to me. No way out for either of us. No divorce. God hates divorce.

I have His guarantee and I trust Him. It was not my faith that saved me but His grace.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

he who believes has everlasting life. And you can't lose everlasting life can you? It would not be everlasting life if you could lose it would it?

johnp.

 

OK, Then define grace! Tell us exactly what grace is, where it comes from, this time be very specific and don't just say "God", because I know a whole lot of human's who also have grace and "give it".

Tell us all exactly how grace saves! Describe the way it works, the mechanics, if you will!

 

johnp.

It's nice to meet you too.

Yes, God is Lord, but that does not mean that He does not allow us to choose to love Him or reject Him. It simply means that things are as He intends them to be. If He intends us to have a choice, then He is still Lord even if some would say that this is impossible.

Every knee will bow. That is why I gave you scritpure to know what kind of Lordship I am talking about.

It's kind of hard not to be if you are willing to give the verse much weight.

It is a mystery. Another mystery is how a man and woman become one when they marry. Simply because we do not understand a mystery, does not mean it is not true. It simply means we do not understand it.

According to 1 John 2:3-10, this is how:


By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.


Wes,

What do you say about Jesus saying that it would have been better for Judas if he had not been born at all?

 

Eladar,
Acknowledged, However Judas had a role to play in God's plan for the salvation of man. He was therefore an Elect, He got his name in lights on the marquee. He was therefore an elect of God, whom the world has known for over 2000 years.

 

Wes,

Are you using the term 'Elect' as the term is usually used? As in the people who were chosen by God to be found righteous and enter the kingdom of heaven?

 

Hello Eladar.

If He intends us to have choice then I believe He would have intended to relinquish His Sovereignty. If He had given us a choice then I would accept that but there are too many scriptures that refute such a thing. This is impossible.

Not at all. The law was put into affect and the people commanded to obey it on pain of death yet the scriptures are full of the fact that man cannot obey it. The NT tells us that it is impossible yet the Israelites were told to obey it.
Open heart surgery is very dangerous especially when you are the one doing the operation on yourself. That is selfrighteousness.

It can't be a mystery. I asked, "Can you tell me how to do this, "...make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit!" Please?" If it is a mystery there is no point to the verse. This is salvation and it is kept a mystery?
"Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."
If you take the chapter as a whole, Eze 18, and the NIV reading to 'get' a new heart, not 'make yourself a new heart', you can see God is using the law to guide people to Christ?
EZE 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.
But He must keep all the decrees. This is not possible is it? You do not believe we can do that do you?
EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
Do you believe that a man can be considered righteous by God? This is aimed at the selfrigteous to let them know the next time they infringe on their conscience that everything they done before is void.
EZE 18:30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
This is a call to the people for self examination of themselves in the light of the law. This should have the effect of causing men to say, "Mercy Lord." But it has the opposite effect in the reprobate. It causes them to try their best and be damned for doing it.

Satan does not love the Lord his God with any of his heart. Just like us then before we are saved. Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Eze 18 must not be used to break Romans 8:7 which is what you are saying should be done. Romans 8:7 is quite clear that man is incapable of doing God's will so believing that Eze 18 is saying the opposite means you break the scriptures and hold to a contradiction.

What do you think?

You wrote to Wes. Hope you forgive me butting in but;

I'm sorry Eladar but this sentence, 'who were chosen by God to be found righteous', loses sense here.
Election is God's eternal decree to choose from sinners deserving condemnation those whom He will Save, providing Salvation through Christ and the Holy Spirit.
The source of Election is in God alone (John 6:37, 44; Eph. 1:4). The cause is His compassionate Mercy and His own Glory. The objects of Election are individual men (Matt. 22:14; John 15:19; Rom. 8:29; 9:13, 15, 18 22). (Pink).

Pick a card Wes and show us how elect can have any other meaning than the one you know we believe.

Eleven elects.
MT 24:22; MT 24:24; MT 24:31; MK 13:20; MK 13:22; MK 13:27; RO 11:7; 1TI 5:21; 2TI 2:10; TIT 1:1; 1PE 1:1.
Three elections.
RO 9:11; RO 11:28; 2PE 1:10.

Elected to infamy, a lasting, widespread, and deep-rooted evil reputation brought about by something criminal, shocking, or brutal : the highest degree of dishonor, is one way of saying it I suppose, then I'm only a Calvinist, but election is not used in this way so I will not make use of it in this way. Reprobation would be the correct word for Judas.

johnp.

 

Hello Eladar.

Butting in again. Do tell me if you find this offensive I know some do. Butting in that is.

Well that fine for Him to say is it not but who created him? PS 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
JOB 10:18 "Why then did you bring me out of the womb? I wish I had died before any eye saw me.
Judas could have said that. The fact that he topped himself shows a man in complete distress over his actions yet this distress is disregarded as repetance.

The same thing can be said of Pharaoh and all reprobates. Yet He keeps churning out the sinners as if there was no tomorrow.

How do read this verse?

johnp.